Is it a TR2 or TR3?

[Leonardo]

Hi

Someone offered me this car as a TR2 but looking the pics he sent me I notticed that the grille belongs to a TR3. I'm waiting for the body number to confirm it, but what do you think?

An other question, what would be the price of this car in your country? The car is imported with a lot of papers to do for registration.

Thanks,

[John Soffe]

Hi

Someone offered me this car as a TR2 but looking the pics he sent me I notticed that the grille belongs to a TR3. I'm waiting for the body number to confirm it, but what do you think?

An other question, what would be the price of this car in your country? The car is imported with a lot of papers to do for registration.

Thanks,

 

 

Hi Leonardo, I see that it has disc brakes at the front and also the bonnet has just two vent slots, therefore I would suggest that it is a TR3

Regards

 

John

[Leonardo]

I have exceeded my upload quota so the next links are some more pics of the car:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2010 by Leonardo

[TR 2100]

Hi

Someone offered me this car as a TR2 but looking the pics he sent me I notticed that the grille belongs to a TR3. I'm waiting for the body number to confirm it, but what do you think?

An other question, what would be the price of this car in your country? The car is imported with a lot of papers to do for registration.

Thanks,

 

 

Hi Leonardo,

 

Fitting a TR3 grille to a TR2 is not uncommon - neither is fitting a

full TR3A front apron to give the car a 'modern' look, so you really

cannot tell from the grille alone.

The hexagonal spinners are TR5/6 but I don't think that reflects the

actual model!

 

When checking the details, I think you need to be a little bit careful

as it could well be parts from two (or more) cars put into one.

No problem if you know about it, and are happy, but it's as well to do

as many checks as you can and know the details before you buy.

 

If it was a TR2, how early? The bonnet has two slots - early TR2s had four.

Check the two numbers on brass plates that should be fixed to the bulkhead

just above the battery.

Short doors - although later TR2s did have short doors.

 

Do a bit more checking and maybe post further details and photos?

 

AlanR

[ianc]

Fitting disc brakes to a TR2 is very simple, so means nothing. Ditto for TR3A front apron and grille.

The TR2 I bought in 1963 had both these modifications, plus the later (sliding window) sidescreens.

Ian Cornish

[Dave Larnder]

Hi

Someone offered me this car as a TR2 but looking the pics he sent me I notticed that the grille belongs to a TR3. I'm waiting for the body number to confirm it, but what do you think?

An other question, what would be the price of this car in your country? The car is imported with a lot of papers to do for registration.

Thanks,

 

 

Hi Leonardo

What is the Spanish connection mentioned?

I live in Murcia Province along with my wife and TR3A - TS28650-L.

 

Dave

[TR 2100]

I didn't notice the disc brakes before - one of a number of features

that can help to identify the true history/identity of the car,

although fitting disc brakes is not a difficult upgrade.

 

From your extra photos:-

Bonnet has dzus fasteners and scuttle has vent (consistent with

later TR2, TR3 or TR3A);

Front apron has no holes to fix the reveal moulding that was

ALWAYS fitted to TR3s;

Master cylinders are the Girling separate setup, NOT the combined

Lockheed setup (consistent with later TR3 or 3A;

Temp gauge is late 4/4A type (ie, not the original capillary)

 

None of these features can identify the car definitively - you

need to check numbers and take it from there.

 

AlanR

Edited February 26, 2010 by TR 2100

[vivdownunder]

Hi Leonardo,

 

It's possibly a short door TR2 between TS4230 and TS8636, as it has a Dzuz fastener bonnet.

 

It also has correct soft beading along the guards, changed to stainless steel beading for the TR3.

 

Many TR2's were upgraded to Girling disc brakes, so that's quite common. Then again it could be a TR2 body on a TR3 or 3A disc brake chassis. 10" rear drums were used on TR2/3/early 3A, so that's not a marker for a TR2.

 

Look into the nose to see if it has the lugs at the back for attaching a TR2 grille. A TR3 nose is different and cut out at the back to allow more airflow to the radiator.

 

Value is difficult, although genuine restorable TR2's are becoming scarce. Maybe in the order of US$4,000 to $8,000 for the rarity, if it's genuine.

 

Regards,

 

Viv

[Leonardo]

First of all THANK YOU (yes I'm shouting ) very much for your answers.

 

I'll come back with the body number. The owner lives far away and before going to see the car and maybe buy it I want to check everythting with the pics.

 

I uploaded some more pics:

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2010 by Leonardo

[Leonardo]

Hi Leonardo

What is the Spanish connection mentioned?

I live in Murcia Province along with my wife and TR3A - TS28650-L.

 

Dave

 

 

Hi Dave, I bet you have not seen this amount of rain in Spain ever!

Maybe one day I could go to Murcia with my new restored sidescreen to go for a drive with you and your sidescreen.

I'm spanish and live in Madrid.

Thanks

[Don Elliott]

Leonardo - The photo of the engine shows carbs which were not used until mid TR3As after about TS 43000. I have seen TR2s with engines and carbs from much later TRs so this will not be decisive to identify the model. Back in the 1960s, it was cheaper to switch from a TR2 or TR3 engine to a newer TR3A engine if the original one was not working well.

 

There are no parking or side running lights shown on the front apron. Maybe a TR2 or TR3 owner could comment on this. I notice that the heavy angle is missing which protects the bottom of the radiator. Don't lift the front end under the bottom header of your radiator. You will crush it upwards. The front bumper irons are missing, so that won't help identify the model as a TR2 or TR3 which had thinner bumper irons than the TR3As.

 

It seems that a lot of items are missing - windscreen and frame, bumpers, bumper irons, interior, seats, gauge, voltage regulator, etc. If all that is missing, I would think that 1500 - 2000 Euros would be a fair price. The metal seems to be in very good condition and would not need any (or much) patching, except for replacement of the battery box.

[Leonardo]

It seems that a lot of items are missing - windscreen and frame, bumpers, bumper irons, interior, seats, gauge, voltage regulator, etc. If all that is missing, I would think that 1500 - 2000 Euros would be a fair price. The metal seems to be in very good condition and would not need any (or much) patching, except for replacement of the battery box.

 

 

Thank you for your answer Don.

I forgot to say that the car has all the items you said, bumpers, seats, windscreen and frame...

[Kiwifrog]

Leonardo

 

There is no way of telling what model of car it is without the commission number. It has the hallmarks of a TR3 but I would not bet my life on it as a lot of parts were interchanged in the life of these cars. If you do not have a commission number then it will be very hard to get registration documents for the car unless yo already have these. Looking at the condition of the car I would value it at a lot more than Dons estimate as it could easily be parted out with those nice rust free panels. I would estimate a minimum of 5000 euros myself

 

Cheers

 

Alan

[TR3BGeorge]

Leonard, here is the profound, definitive answer to your question:

 

YOU WILL NEVER KNOW !!!

 

As folks have pointed out, this car could be ANYTHING. Even new from the factory, based on Commission Numbers, you can't be sure. Some TR2s had the TR3 apron, and vice versa. The same applies to the TR3/TR3A transition. These transition periods were a Chinese Fire Drill. They used what parts they had!

 

Even with a commission number you can't be sure. Hell, it might not be the firewall that came with the car! For example, my August 1962 TR3B has a 1958 firewall in it, discerned from the copper body plates that are original, versus the commission plate that is a redo.

 

So, what have I got? And, what have you got? Only God knows, and, right now, based on prices, He seems to be in the MGA camp.

 

Good luck, my friend. If your car were mine, I would be calling it a TR3, based on your photos. Or, you can call it an "updated TR2."

[vivdownunder]

The thing is Leonardo, if you really want a short door TR2, that car has the nose and doors without handles needed to make one.

 

If you want, you can pick up a low port head and 1.5" H6 carbies to return the engine to original.

 

Most wouldn't care what block it has, but there will be a TR2 stamped block out there if you must.

 

After all, you might wait donkey's years for another car with these TR2 basics to come up for sale.

 

I'd be buying it at best price, smash the rebuild through, and enjoy.

 

Only proviso is what commission number formalities you need for local registration.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

 

PS George, were hinge plinths added to the 1958 scuttle, or the hinges just packed up ?.

[Herald948]

In the first picture posted, I'm pretty sure I do NOT see a scuttle vent. If so, that would make this a TR2, right?

[vivdownunder]

Err Herald, check image 683.

 

Let's not make it any more confusing.

 

V.

[TR 2100]

In the first picture posted, I'm pretty sure I do NOT see a scuttle vent. If so, that would make this a TR2, right?

 

 

Yes, it would (or at least the scuttle would be TR2).

 

But if you check the first of the extra photos posted,

you will see the scuttle vent.

 

AlanR

[Kiwifrog]

My 1955 TR2 short door project has a scuttle vent as well and I have the history of the car from 1965 and I am sure the scuttle panel has never been changed, so it could still be a late TR2

 

Cheers

 

Alan

Edited February 28, 2010 by Kiwifrog

[Herald948]

But if you check the first of the extra photos posted, you will see the scuttle vent.

 

Darn, I missed that one photo before! But the lid lies so flat it didn't seem to even show in the other shots.

 

Never mind.

[vivdownunder]

A scuttle vent narrows it down to a car after TS6157 of April 1955.

 

Roughly the last 500 x TR2's had the chrome reveal moulding go fully around the nose, as per the TR3.

 

It looks like the fixing holes in the nose for that moulding are for one of those last cars, however it's unlikely to be a TR3 nose.

 

The holes to fix a TR3 grille appear to be home drilled, rather than factory original.

 

Leonardo, for heaven's sake solve it mate and post the bloody commission number.

 

Viv.

[Leonardo]

HI!

 

Here I am after a weekend studying the pictures of the car. I noticed the H6 SUs with their four stud fixing. Don said these carbs were not used until mid TR3As after about TS 43000 but I read in Bill Piggott's Original Triumph TR that these carbs were introduced in the TS8637, the first TR3, and disc brakes where introduced in the TS13046. So I guess all these things takes us to the TR3...

 

But as I said I asked to the owner (George I recall you the car is not mine................................ yet )about the commission number (Viv. impatient! ).

But what would you do if you are not a reliable person and you want to sell a TR3 or a half TR2-half TR3 as a TR2 to someone?

Of course there is no comission plate

 

 

I came to the office this morning and I found an email of the (now) owner with this pic:

 

 

Of course I have the Bill Piggotts book every hour with me and I see this is a 1961 engine as the "laters cars have en engine number several hundreds higher than the commission number".

 

The thing is I'm enjoying very much this process of studying the car but the (now) owner is asking too much for the car (9000 €). Maybe if it was a proper TR2 that price could be a start to negociate. You have to think this is Spain and in the 50s - 60s this country was very very poor and a very few Trs were imported so if I want a TR2 I would have to buy it in England or Europe or USA and transport it to here increasing the cost. But now I guess the price has to lower quite a lot. What do you think?

Edited March 1, 2010 by Leonardo

[TR 2100]

Leonardo,

 

4-stud cars were fitted from the first of the TR3s. I don't know where Don

got his idea from.

 

The engine number is very late TR3A, but that doesn't tell you much. Plenty

of TRs have replacement engines.

 

So, no commission number plate, but what about the two brass plates that

should be fitted to the bulkhead just above/behind the battery?

These are very very useful numbers as when previous owners change (or lose)

such thanks as commission number plates, they don't realise these two brass

plates can identify the car.

 

There are also numbers on the gearbox and rear axle that can date those

components, and although nothing is conclusive, those components are often

left unchanged.

 

After that, you are into more research and tracking the very small detail

changes that were introduced from time to time.

Until then, on the balance of probability, it seems to be a Girling disc

brake TR3. A desirable combination.

 

As for price, I think the lack of clear identify would certainly detract

from the value, it's certainly a negotiating factor, although ultimately,

the car is what the registration documents say it is.

(without wishing to start another rally car/lhd to rhd clone thread)

 

AlanR

Edited March 1, 2010 by TR 2100

[Leonardo]

Thank you Alan.

 

No, the car has no plass plates either. I guess you can lose one plate for any reason but 3? the only way to lose the 3 plates is because you want them lost. The car has no registration in Spain. The owner says he bougnt it in Belgium where it was first registred but he has no documents of the car at all. So I have to register the car in Spain if I buy it and I guess I'll do it as a TR3.

[TR 2100]

the car has no plass plates either. I guess you can lose one plate for any reason but 3?

the only way to lose the 3 plates is because you want them lost.

The car has no registration in Spain. The owner says he bougnt it in Belgium

where it was first registred but he has no documents of the car at all.

So I have to register the car in Spain if I buy it and I guess I'll do it as a TR3.

 

 

The question is becoming what the documents say, if they are genuine,

and if they are enough to register the car in Spain.

The question is what the car was, and how it became what it is, is

becoming secondary, and probably will never be known.

 

I don't suppose the seller would give you any details of the person

he bought the car from?

Silly question.

But all this adds to your chances of negotiating the price down.

You'll have to play hardball, though - low offer, walk away, then

contact him again a few weeks later.

 

You say here "no documents with the car" but I got the idea from

your first posting on the thread that there were lots of papers.

Maybe you meant "lots of papers to be done".

 

Very much a case of caveat emptor until you know whether or not

you will be able to register it at all, never mind what as.

Without any identity plate or papers, you could have a problem.

 

AlanR