Fitting an Alternator to a TR3a

[Ian Vincent]

I am at the stage of working out how to fit an alternator to my engine as I am rebuilding it.

 

I have acquired a brand new Quinton Hazell TR6 Alternator complete with pulley for a pittance and would like to use it if at all possible. Its a 34 amp unit which will be fine for what I need and will avoid me having to replace the ammeter

 

Reading Ian Cornish's article in TR Technicalities it states that "A TR6 unit is unsuitable as supplied, becasue it is RH Fixing. However I am assured that it can be converted to LH fixing by removing the back cover, withdrawing the three through bolts and reversing the front bracket".

 

I don't know if my QH unit is different to the original item but the front bracket is an aluminium casting with an integral mounting, not a separate plate which can be reversed. As a result, I don't see how it can be reversed. What I could do would be to rotate the front plate by 120 degrees and then use a longer adjusting strut, however this would mean that I would no longer have a tapped hole in the alternator through which to clamp it as I would have drilled out the tapped hole to use as a swivel - if you see what I mean. (The loss of the tapped hole isn't a problem - I would replace it with a separate nut)

 

So my question is - before I go ahead and make the modification to a perfectly good alternator - will this work? Has anyone else performed a similar trick or is there a better way?

 

And assuming it all works - is there room for the TR6 alternator between the inner wing and the engine?

 

Rgds Ian

[Tr4Tony]

Ian

 

I have tried this sort of thing on a 4a and the answer is that it wont work satisfactorily with any sort of service life. No point in ruining a good alternator.

 

The answer is a little DENSO alternator (45 / 55 or 70 amp) which is small enough to clear all the bits and bobs and also enough air circulates around it to stop it cooking and works very well on the 4 cyl engine. the big LRA or BOSCH type do seem to get cooked often, and with the regulator in the plastic shielded end its a matter of time rather than a maybe.

 

 

Ive run a DENSO in BST82B for 5 years now without any problems, save that I really need a 100 amp effort to power all the goodies in the dark and wet lanes in the winter! cant recommend them highly enough.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[ianc]

The TR5/6 alternator is very large and there is precious little room in a TR2/3/3A - I have a feeling it might hit the inner wing. There's more room in a TR4/4A, but even so, I would try and pick up an alternator from a TR7 (the type I have on my TR4, and which is described in my article) - there must be many about (try Robsport or Rimmers).

I would recommend a move to narrow pulleys, with an internally toothed belt - it creates more space and fitting/changing a belt is so much easier!

Ian Cornish

[jean]

]When I upgraded the alternator of my 6 to 65amp I fitted the old one, in fact a new LR100 I think, to the TR3A. It's driven by a thin pulley. Yes it's a close fit, but it works perfectly, the diodes at the rear side are rather heat sensitive so it's important to fit a proper heat shield [attachment=5601:Altern.jpg

[TR3BGeorge]

I have a related problem that you folks on the "other side" might not have, depending on your alternators. I also have an alternator, a GM, I think. It is only 4 inches long. Because of this shortness, it has no rear mount, only the two forward mounts. So, it is not as stable as I would like it.

 

My mechanic is going to rig something on the rear end of the alternator that will allow the original long mounting bolt to pass thru on its way thru the original mounting bracket, which is still on there, nice and tight (the bolt holes go straight into the crankcase). This will give some stability to the rear end of the alternator. I think that he already knows what he is going to do - he is pretty sharp.

 

Merry Christmas to all!

[ianc]

George,

Make sure your man locks the bolts which hold the bracket to the crankcase, because they do pass through the wall and should one fall out, the engine will spew its oil out - and that's not desirable so close to the hot exhaust.

He can cross-drill the heads of the bolts and wire them, and use Lock and Seal on the threads (belt and braces!).

How do I know? My brother's TR3 had this happen.

 

Jean,

Interesting that you managed to fit the TR6 alternator to a TR3A, but you are right to mention the use of a heat shield. In fact, I would advise the fitting of a heat shield whenever there is a tubular exhaust manifold, regardless of whether a dynamo or alternator is used.

 

Ian Cornish

[james christie]

Tony, tell us more about the Denso alternator and its fitting

A change to an alternator on my 3A is one of my winter projects - when things get a bit warmer in the garage

 

james christie

[TR3BGeorge]

George,

Make sure your man locks the bolts which hold the bracket to the crankcase, because they do pass through the wall and should one fall out, the engine will spew its oil out - and that's not desirable so close to the hot exhaust.

He can cross-drill the heads of the bolts and wire them, and use Lock and Seal on the threads (belt and braces!).

 

 

Ian, funny you should mention that! Ed told me that lock-wiring the bolts is an old racing trick, taught to him by [drum roll] Kaz Kastner! He didn't drill mine, but he tightened them up real well. Don Elliott also told me about keeping them tight. He might have mentioned Lock and Seal, or some "American" product. The next time I take it in, he may do the "bolt-drill-wire-lock" thing when he resolves my mounting "problem." I am in no hurry now: she runs so well (knock wood) that I am using her as a daily driver for all my local jaunts.

 

Oh, I just remembered something. I can't remember whether or not I told you guys this, but I want to pass it along. My best friend from high school recently bought a 1953 MGTD, had it delivered to his house from the shop that adjusted his SUs. Rain was coming, so they put it under a tarp. It rained all night.................the rain stopped ................................the MG wouldn't start.

 

Why should things be any different in 56 years?

[Chris59]

I must be a sort of alien : I have an alternator on my TR2, and will convert it back to a dynamo (with the correct screw on connectors), and replace the entire car loom, as it is pretty old.

Chris.

[BrianC]

I must be a sort of alien : I have an alternator on my TR2, and will convert it back to a dynamo (with the correct screw on connectors), and replace the entire car loom, as it is pretty old.

Chris.

 

Don't worry Chris, you are neither an alien nor a dinosaur. IMHO, there is no need to replace a dynamo with an alternator on any 4-cylinder TR unless you want to do night rallies with loads of extra lighting - just make sure you have the heaviest duty battery you can find and look after it and the dynamo. [but then I really am a dinosaur ]

[jean]

Unfortunately for people doing a narrow pulley conversion it might be a problem as most conversions kits are supplied with a large alternator pulley, more or less made for racing purposes, read high continious rpm ....These will provide very little load capability on a generator.

Edited December 28, 2009 by jean

[Tr4Tony]

Hi

 

You can buy a DENSO with a small alternator pulley (or another special one to fit and peen on) so it can work with the narrow conversion.

 

Tony

[Ian Vincent]

]When I upgraded the alternator of my 6 to 65amp I fitted the old one, in fact a new LR100 I think, to the TR3A. It's driven by a thin pulley. Yes it's a close fit, but it works perfectly, the diodes at the rear side are rather heat sensitive so it's important to fit a proper heat shield [attachment=5601:Altern.jpg

 

 

Jean,

 

Many thanks for this post and the very helpful photo. It looks as if you have rotated the front cover by 120 degrees - did you drill out the threaded hole or leave it as is?

 

Based upon your evidence I will do a trial fit of my TR6 unit with the exhaust manifold that I am planning to use and which, being a tubular one, will need wrapping anyway along with a heat shield.

 

Thanks also for all the other posts and the suggestions regarding a smaller alternator - the only problem is that the typical Nippon Denso item is around £100 whereas I already have the TR6 item which as I say, I picked up for less than £20. Plus, as an added bonus, the mounting bracket for the TR3a dynamo fits the TR6 alternator perfectly without any need to cut off and re-weld the rear plate (leg)

 

Rgds Ian

[Menno van Rij]

I have a Denso alternator in my car also. It's from a 1989 Suzuki Swift. You can also find even smaller alternators: the ones Kubota puts in their agricultural machines.

 

Menno

 

 

 

[88V8]

I have a Denso alternator in my car also. It's from a 1989 Suzuki Swift.

That's a very neat installation.

 

I would guess that most people are unbothered at the thought of hanging a modern alternator on their 'period' engine.

For those who are bothered, there's ....

 

http://www.powerlite...uk/dynalite.htm

 

I learned of this in an article in a Landy mag. The owner of a Series I - not the hen's teeth Station Wagon, just a cooking model - was sufficiently bothered to shell out £400 for one of these units as replacement for the modern alternator he fitted some years ago.

 

Ivor

[BrianC]

The Dynalite 'lightweight alternator that looks like a dynamo' has been sold by Racetorations/RaceMettle for several years. I guess it's worth the money for anyone wanting to maintain an original appearance for concours but still have the benefit (? ?) of an alternator as (from a quick scan of the fitting instructions on the website) you can retain the original pulley, fan, control box and earthing polarity.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Tony, tell us more about the Denso alternator and its fitting

A change to an alternator on my 3A is one of my winter projects - when things get a bit warmer in the garage

 

james christie

 

 

Hi James,

Both Keith and I have this mod with the Kubota alternator using the original wide belt. It means turning the back off the orig pulley and deepening the nut hole.

Drop me a pm and I will let you have the details of where Keith and I got our bits and the size of the spacer that had to be turned up to position the whole thing correctly. Failing that see you at 'The Farts'and we can talk it to bits over a pint.

Menno van Rij 2 installation (see in this list)is a very good one and similar to ours.

As always the electrical bit at the regulator needs neat work or it looks a bit 'Boy racer prepared Escort'

 

Peter W

[ronin]

Menno,

 

I had a few questions about your installation, which is very nice and clean. Do you know the part number of the starter itself? (I just enlarged the picture posted above, is it AZA-412?) I am in the USA and don't know if an '89 Suzuki Swift here is the same as the model there. I'd just like to be able to cross-reference the part as a double check.

 

Also, I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but what bracket are you using to mount the alternator. Also, where did you get the pulleys for the crank and water pump, and what belt are you using? Are there any other parts I'm missing?

 

Thanks,

 

Eric

Edited January 12, 2010 by ronin

[cliffaud]

I am at the stage of working out how to fit an alternator to my engine as I am rebuilding it.

 

I have acquired a brand new Quinton Hazell TR6 Alternator complete with pulley for a pittance and would like to use it if at all possible. Its a 34 amp unit which will be fine for what I need and will avoid me having to replace the ammeter

 

Reading Ian Cornish's article in TR Technicalities it states that "A TR6 unit is unsuitable as supplied, becasue it is RH Fixing. However I am assured that it can be converted to LH fixing by removing the back cover, withdrawing the three through bolts and reversing the front bracket".

 

I don't know if my QH unit is different to the original item but the front bracket is an aluminium casting with an integral mounting, not a separate plate which can be reversed. As a result, I don't see how it can be reversed. What I could do would be to rotate the front plate by 120 degrees and then use a longer adjusting strut, however this would mean that I would no longer have a tapped hole in the alternator through which to clamp it as I would have drilled out the tapped hole to use as a swivel - if you see what I mean. (The loss of the tapped hole isn't a problem - I would replace it with a separate nut)

 

So my question is - before I go ahead and make the modification to a perfectly good alternator - will this work? Has anyone else performed a similar trick or is there a better way?

 

And assuming it all works - is there room for the TR6 alternator between the inner wing and the engine?

 

Rgds Ian

 

[cliffaud]

I am at the stage of working out how to fit an alternator to my engine as I am rebuilding it.

 

I have acquired a brand new Quinton Hazell TR6 Alternator complete with pulley for a pittance and would like to use it if at all possible. Its a 34 amp unit which will be fine for what I need and will avoid me having to replace the ammeter

 

Reading Ian Cornish's article in TR Technicalities it states that "A TR6 unit is unsuitable as supplied, becasue it is RH Fixing. However I am assured that it can be converted to LH fixing by removing the back cover, withdrawing the three through bolts and reversing the front bracket".

 

I don't know if my QH unit is different to the original item but the front bracket is an aluminium casting with an integral mounting, not a separate plate which can be reversed. As a result, I don't see how it can be reversed. What I could do would be to rotate the front plate by 120 degrees and then use a longer adjusting strut, however this would mean that I would no longer have a tapped hole in the alternator through which to clamp it as I would have drilled out the tapped hole to use as a swivel - if you see what I mean. (The loss of the tapped hole isn't a problem - I would replace it with a separate nut)

 

So my question is - before I go ahead and make the modification to a perfectly good alternator - will this work? Has anyone else performed a similar trick or is there a better way?

 

And assuming it all works - is there room for the TR6 alternator between the inner wing and the engine?

 

Rgds Ian

 

Ian,

I have a Lucas TR6 alternator fitted to my 3A. All that was necessary was to rotate the front plate of the altrenator; there is enough room in the engine bay without it fouling anything. I have thin belt conversion and am very satisfied with it.

Cliff

 

[ianc]

When I fitted a TR7-style alternator to my TR4, Neil Revington supplied a modified version of the mounting bracket, which takes account of the fact that the alternator is much shorter than the dynamo. The bracket is depicted in TR Action 118 and in Section J4 of the Technicalities CD. If Neil still supplies this bracket, it would avoid the need for that long piece of studding sticking out of the back of the alternator.

Incidentally, I recommend the use of a heat shield between exhaust manifold and alternator.

Ian Cornish

[Menno van Rij]

Menno,

 

I had a few questions about your installation, which is very nice and clean. Do you know the part number of the starter itself? (I just enlarged the picture posted above, is it AZA-412?) I am in the USA and don't know if an '89 Suzuki Swift here is the same as the model there. I'd just like to be able to cross-reference the part as a double check.

 

Also, I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but what bracket are you using to mount the alternator. Also, where did you get the pulleys for the crank and water pump, and what belt are you using? Are there any other parts I'm missing?

 

Thanks,

 

Eric

 

 

Eric,

 

You are right about the AZA-412. I think a Suzuki Swift was called a Geo Metro in the USA at that time. An automotive supplier must be able to look it up for you. My local supplier looked it up in a thick book. I even think that the same alternator was also mounted in Suzuki's other small engined cars like the Samurai (Sidekick in some other countries?) I've searched the internet high and low to find a suitable alternator. When I found the right one, I didn't tell the seller that I was looking for an alternator to upgrade my classic car. That would have rocketed the price through the roof! I simply asked for an alternator suited for a 1989 Suzuki... He came up with this one. About $80, I think.

 

About the bracket. The original was a PITA to mount. So, Alan the guy at the workshop, used his lathe to come up with this bolt. The bracket mounted to the side of the engine is the standard bracket, I think...

 

The pulley on the alternator came with the alternator. All other small pulleys and belt came from a German supplier called Bastuck. But I'm quite sure that The Roadster Factory has a similar set for sale.

 

After a few thousand miles last year, I can say that I would buy this alternator again. No problem at all! The 35-ish AMP are enough to for the car. Halogen headlights, Pacet fan, heater/demister. No problem.

 

When I decided to install the alternator, I also decided to ditch the ammeter. I didn't like the thought of having two thick wires with high current running a few inches away from a metal dashboard. So, I replaced the ammeter. There's now a voltmeter. It was Stuart here on the forum, who pointed me into the right direction and told me that there was a period-correct voltmeter for sale on eBay.co.uk at the time. So that's now installed!

 

The alternator is so small that it doesn't get cooked by the exhaust. Not even after a long drive on a hot day. I agree with the guys on the forum that heat insulation is a good idea, but I haven't needed it so far!

 

If you need other comments, ideas and more, don't hesitate to ask here or PM me!

 

Menno

 

Two pics. Here you can see the small pulleys

 

Here's a pic of the voltmeter installed where normally the ammeter sits (on a LH car). Not a great pic, I admit

[Ian Vincent]

Ian,

I have a Lucas TR6 alternator fitted to my 3A. All that was necessary was to rotate the front plate of the altrenator; there is enough room in the engine bay without it fouling anything. I have thin belt conversion and am very satisfied with it.

Cliff

 

Many thanks Cliff.

 

Rgds Ian

[ronin]

Menno,

 

Thanks for the comments and the pictures. They are both very helpful! I am curious about the voltmeter. I have been interested in one for my car as well, but, like you, I wanted something that looked period correct and matched the other gauges as well as possible. It looks like the gauge you have does that very well. Any chance you could give me some more info about it? Also, could you post, or email me, a close up of you 4 gauge dash panel and/or the gauge itself?

 

I'll have to check out my local parts stores this weekend and see if I have any success finding the same part.

 

Very nice looking car and restoration, by the way.

 

Thanks again for the help,

 

Eric

[Menno van Rij]

strangely, I don't have a close up pic of the 4 gauges together and I'm not near my car at the moment. On the other hand, I found a better pic of the same voltmeter on eBay just the other day, when I was looking for tachometer for my Saab 96.

 

It's this gauge, form this eBay store.