any one have experiance of tr6 electronic fuel injection

[jean]

Sorry to intervene, but the TR6 long stroke engine is not made to run 35mpg whatever system you fit, unless you keep it in the garage most of the time. Don't dare to use it often on track days or high speed cruising. I recently saw an engine with a fuel consumption in that region, it had a nice round hole in one piston due to overheating at the piston top

Realize that fuel/oil also has a cooling task and on a long stroke engine it's vital to keep the upper part of the engine cool

 

IMHO it's very hard to map an EFI for economy and track use at the same time, it's one or the other. For best results it's even advised to use different maps for different tracks. I mapped the system on my 6 for 26 to 28 mpg and I think according to the spark colour it's the best you can get for that specific engine with burning the top.

 

On the rolling road my 6 was mapped for around 135hp at the rear wheels with a standard PI engine this would be good for track use, but not for economy

 

Please do not compare a TR6 to a modern short stroke engine and it's fuel economy, the most gain you get from EFI is probably better low range torque and in general a better fuel compatibility. Compared to a very well calibrated Lucas injection system the fuel economy will not improve considerably.

 

That's my experience on EFI since I fitted it in 98, but it might differ from other's view.

[bograt]

Sorry to intervene, but the TR6 long stroke engine is not made to run 35mpg whatever system you fit, unless you keep it in the garage most of the time. Don't dare to use it often on track days or high speed cruising. I recently saw an engine with a fuel consumption in that region, it had a nice round hole in one piston due to overheating at the piston top

Realize that fuel/oil also has a cooling task and on a long stroke engine it's vital to keep the upper part of the engine cool

 

IMHO it's very hard to map an EFI for economy and track use at the same time, it's one or the other. For best results it's even advised to use different maps for different tracks. I mapped the system on my 6 for 26 to 28 mpg and I think according to the spark colour it's the best you can get for that specific engine with burning the top.

 

On the rolling road my 6 was mapped for around 135hp at the rear wheels with a standard PI engine this would be good for track use, but not for economy

 

Please do not compare a TR6 to a modern short stroke engine and it's fuel economy, the most gain you get from EFI is probably better low range torque and in general a better fuel compatibility. Compared to a very well calibrated Lucas injection system the fuel economy will not improve considerably.

 

That's my experience on EFI since I fitted it in 98, but it might differ from other's view.

 

 

emerald has a pot switch you can hide under the dash you can have three maps , one for eco one for fast road use and say one for high altitude

as for the original system yes a well set up will not be much different but keeping it that way is something else i belive. all the best . this was my first question on this forum certainly started with a good one !!!! . as for update modified the distributer drive so it is capped off just running the oil pump now.

[Nick Jones]

I don't really agree with this talk of "track map" and "road map".

 

Below you see a typical Megasquirt fuelling map - as a 12 x 12 table of manifold pressure versus rpm. Manifold pressure is the defining indicator of engine load; high pressure (approaching atmospheric pressure)indicates an open throttle and low pressure indicates small throttle openings.

 

Idle is to the left. My engine idles at about 55mBar and 800 rpm. Full throttle is along the top row so maximum power is in the top right corner more of less.

 

The figures in the bins are values determined by road testing / rolling road testing have been found to give the desired air/fuel ratio (AFR) under those conditions of rpm and load. Parameters between these points are interpolated. These numbers determine the length of injector pulse and thus the amount of fuel injected per revolution.

 

The desired AFR is different at different points. Best power is obtained slightly rich of the ideal (complete combustion) ratio of 14.7 part air to 1 fuel, bewteen 12 - 13.5 typically. Additionally, being slightly richer than that again helps keep combustion temperature down and helps avoid melting things, although going too far reduces power and wastes fuel. Best economy is obtained at slightly leaner than the ideal ratio and under conditions of light load you can go pretty lean (15 - 17.5 typically) without risk of damage. In practice the lower limit in light load conditions is determined by driveability - too lean and it becomes "hitchy" and hesitant.

 

The second table below shows my interpretation of what AFRs are wanted at the various points in the rev/load range. In the high load / revs area top right where the engine is working hard it needs a rich mixture for best power and keep temperatures down. As the revs come down, even at full throttle you can run things a little leaner as heat is produced at a lower rate. At part load you can lean things off as far as possible consistent with smooth running for best economy. On my car 70mph in 5th is 3000 rpm and manifold pressure on flat road is around 60mBar.

 

My point really is that on a correctly mapped engine, the parameters that give the best results for each part of the engines working range are all captured. The parts of the map that are used on a track day are different from the parts that you use in everyday driving (unless you are a complete hooligan ), but they are all in the same map, you don't need two maps.

 

There are uses for two (or more) maps. Altitude compensation would be one if the ECU does not have barometric correction. Fuel octane would be another if knock sensing is not fitted (this affects the ignition map far more than the fuel map though). Dual fuel (petrol vs. LPG say) would be another.

 

I do also think it should be possible to get a TR6 engine to achieve 35mpg under cruising conditions. My Vitesse (only 2L admittedly) has returned tank averages under gentle continental cruising conditions (with the wife!) of over 40 mpg. On a recent quick lap of Europe (without the wife) it returned 35.3 mpg overall over just under 3000 miles inspite of a royal ragging in the Pyrenes and Alps plus a flying lap of Nurburgring. A TR6 is probably a bit better on the aerodynamics front and has the benfit of taller gearing. I have no doubt that a TR6 can drink it under the table under full chat conditions as well as leaving it far behind

[vernon]

I can't really comment on fuel economy because I don't get to drive carefully enough for long enough. My TR6 on emerald based engine management goes well and is fun to drive, and if you use the "go" on shortish trips you get about 25mpg as Jean suggests, and I doubt it will do much better thanks to the ancient combustion chamber design. My current model BMW 325 only does slightly better in similar use although it is of course heavier: the TR on original PI did 22mpg or so. However, with the EFi, it will tolerate running very lean at small throttle openings at moderate cruising speed. With a wideband lambda sensor it can be configured to run in closed loop mode, adjusting fueling to a target air fuel mixture. On the few occasions I've driven it at reasonable speeds for good distances like this, the fuel gauge only went down slowly. There is little risk of holing a piston like this because the power produced and therefore heat at steady cruise at, say, 60mph, is only small. If you look at such a fueling map, the AFR target at small throttle openings and moderate rpm may be quite low - 15 or more:1, whereas full power requires mixtures richer than stoichiometric (chemically balanced) - as rich as 12.5:1. You can adjust your fuelling in microscopic steps as you drive along, watching the efffect on AFR via your lap top. PI seemed almost impossible to adjust at all! (This all takes place on closed private roads of course officer)

[had17462]

Hi all,

there are so many people on here who are watching this topic ,is there someone on here who can make a website or a step by step guide on how to do the conversion with bograts help,i would be willing to put a few quid towards it.

regards nick

[jerrytr5]

Sorry to intervene, but the TR6 long stroke engine is not made to run 35mpg whatever system you fit, unless you keep it in the garage most of the time. Don't dare to use it often on track days or high speed cruising.

 

Have to disagree with you Jean.

I tested mine shortly after installation with a 100 mile plus trip at 70 mph and it returned 39mpg. This was the most boring trip I have ever made but it needed doing in the interests of science. I regularly use it on track days at Nordschleife, Brands, Mallory, Cadwell and Donnington. Did 75 miles round Brands in an afternoon last month turning in 1:06 laps. I would usually cruise on the motorway at the speed of the general traffic (make of that what you will ) I've been running efi for the best part of 10 years and 30,000 miles. Whilst this is not high mileage I concede, it is certainly not a polishers car.

Jerry

[PJM]

Nick - an interesting explanation in simple terms that us mechanical types can understand. Thank you

[Tony Millward]

Hi all,

there are so many people on here who are watching this topic ,is there someone on here who can make a website or a step by step guide on how to do the conversion with bograts help,i would be willing to put a few quid towards it.

regards nick

 

 

 

Great idea....count me in too..

 

Tony

[simonjrwinter]

Just found this video

 

 

[Steve Knight]

Nick ... Here is the link .. it is a very informative site as well .. http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_k3.html

 

 

This must be the Dave Walker who wrote in "Car & Car Conversions" He was / is a genius. Years before us mere mortals even knew about ECU and mapping, he was talking about retro fitting the system on classic cars. Later his stuff on re-mapping practically wrote the book, he was the man who led the field. His work was astonishing, it was very hard to follow, I doubt if I understood. Click on that site and his links, to see what is really happening in engine development, he still includes some classics !!

[bograt]

Hi all

Time for an update for those who are interested

Finished modifying the distributor

Started to look at the rest of the task .

A) the front suspension tower tube bridge runs very close to the front pulley , not enough room to add toothed timing cog to front of pulley wheel , I can tackle this 3 ways 1) cut a 10 mm chunk out of tube weld plate in . 2) flatten tube with hammer ( will need to heat first ) 3) see if I can machine the back of the pulley to allow the pulley to sit closer to the engine . theres not a lot of room between pulley and timing cover so I think this is out . may be a mixture of 2+3 ill have a ponder on this

have decided to junk the six std butterflys and go for one at the front of the inlet tube . to this end went down the scrap yard and acquired a 2.5 24v ford v6 butterfly . This has a electric idle air bypass which I can power from the ecu if required . stripped and cleaned up .

c) made a list of bits to get made and to make like mount plate for butterfly will draw this on cad , any one who wants a dxf to get laser cut drop me a line . looks like there is enough meat in the inlets to take the knew injectors but I need to plan the fuel rail mounting at the same time. Engine fan will have to go so its electric fan here we come this will mean ( d )

d) Im going to need 1 relay/fuse for fan control I relay/fuse for fuel pump and Im going to change lights to halogen and add some other electrical gizmos to car you know flashing blue neon lights under car etc only kidding about the lights so Im looking to add a fuse relay box either from a small car from scrap yard or an after market fuse and relay box . I am taking digital photos and I will draw up all the things I do if any one wants them including wiring diagrams. All the things Im doing will work on mega squirt as well . if you want me to keep posting updates let me know or Ill just get on with it. All the best bograt ( gary ) added , having had think in the bath if i machine the back of the pulley then the water pump and alternator wont line up so thats out! looks like its the big hammer.

Edited December 4, 2009 by bograt

[had17462]

Gary i for one would like the updates,

nick

[Tony Millward]

Gary i for one would like the updates,

nick

 

 

Me too please Gary....

 

Tony

[88V8]

A) the front suspension tower tube bridge runs very close to the front pulley , not enough room to add toothed timing cog to front of pulley wheel , I can tackle this 3 ways 1) cut a 10 mm chunk out of tube weld plate in . 2) flatten tube with hammer ( will need to heat first ) 3) see if I can machine the back of the pulley to allow the pulley to sit closer to the engine . there's not a lot of room between pulley and timing cover so I think this is out . may be a mixture of 2+3 ill have a ponder on this

At Duxford was a chap with a TR6 on which he had poured money in an endless stream, including an ATI crank damper which necessitated.... the making of a new cross-tube with more clearance. So well executed you couldn't tell it was non-standard.

I'll see if I can find his id I'm sure he'd be happy to put you onto the chap who did the work. Neil knows him...

 

Ivor

[mccallm]

Keep the updates coming.

 

Mark

[6pack]

Gary,

 

For sure keep the updates coming .. I am thinking about having mine uprated to K3 system with Lambda sensor .. What I would like to know is which injectors and manifold are you going to use ..

 

Thanks ... Brian

[Tom Fremont]

This thread shows just how far some owners will go to keep their cars one step ahead of the Grim Reaper aka " Classic " status.

 

Despite such valiant efforts ( or maybe in part because of them ) my money is on the highly sought after / highly valued examples going forward being those which employ vintage technology; i.e. carbs or Lucas P.I. ( which same include 230 BHP examples with tractable behavior, btw ).

 

At first I was surprised when my co-worker declared he'd feel more secure going cross-country in my '68 TR than in his own showroom condition 2001 Z3 2.5 - then when he pointed out that he could actually work on the TR I began to understand. And he's an ASE certified auto mechanic too...

[Guest ntc]

This thread shows just how far some owners will go to keep their cars one step ahead of the Grim Reaper aka " Classic " status.

 

Despite such valiant efforts ( or maybe in part because of them ) my money is on the highly sought after / highly valued examples going forward being those which employ vintage technology; i.e. carbs or Lucas P.I. ( which same include 230 BHP examples with tractable behavior, btw ).

 

At first I was surprised when my co-worker declared he'd feel more secure going cross-country in my '68 TR than in his own showroom condition 2001 Z3 2.5 - then when he pointed out that he could actually work on the TR I began to understand. And he's an ASE certified auto mechanic too...

 

 

I could not agree more Tom I have driven a few efi's and it is not for me but we are all different and the engine should be built to match

[sixnick]

hello all

 

any one out there in tr6 land have experiance of fitting electronic fuel injection and managment system in particular emerald to a pi tr6

regards gary bograt. if no one has done this i'm about to undertake this. can keep you all informed if you want

 

[bograt]

Gary,

 

For sure keep the updates coming .. I am thinking about having mine uprated to K3 system with Lambda sensor .. What I would like to know is which injectors and manifold are you going to use ..

 

Thanks ... Brian

 

 

hello brian 340cc injectors supplied new by emerald , original pi manifolds, butterfly's remouved one single ford inlet with adapter plate welded to front of air intake - pictures to follow

[Ian Squire]

hello all

 

any one out there in tr6 land have experiance of fitting electronic fuel injection and managment system in particular emerald to a pi tr6

regards gary bograt. if no one has done this i'm about to undertake this. can keep you all informed if you want

 

 

Hi Gary,

I fitted Emerald EFI to my TR5 last winter. I've lots of photos, but no write-up. Regarding the trigger wheel sensor have a look at the way I mounted the sensor.

http://picasaweb.google.com/ianmsquire/TriggerWheelSensor#

Cheers,

Ian

[6pack]

Hi Ian,

 

Would you mind letting me know what throttle bodies, manifold and injectors you used .. and what mpg do you get on an out of town run .. My system needs fettling and I am looking for some ideas ..

 

Thanks .. Brian

 

 

[bograt]

Hi Gary,

I fitted Emerald EFI to my TR5 last winter. I've lots of photos, but no write-up. Regarding the trigger wheel sensor have a look at the way I mounted the sensor.

http://picasaweb.google.com/ianmsquire/TriggerWheelSensor#

Cheers,

Ian

 

hello ian thanks given me some good ideas . ill draw up a bigger trigger wheel and mount behind like you did thanks . "note to all" the trigger wheel supplied by emerald is to small if you want one like ian's let me know and i'll get more than one cut. thanks gary ( bograt )

[Ian Squire]

Hi Ian,

 

Would you mind letting me know what throttle bodies, manifold and injectors you used .. and what mpg do you get on an out of town run .. My system needs fettling and I am looking for some ideas ..

 

Thanks .. Brian

 

 

Hi Brian,

I used Jenvey Throttle bodies TBP40i in red with 320cc/min injectors. The manifold I used was a standard Weber inlet manifold (the Jenvey throttle bodies and Webers have the same interface). Mine came from Jigsaw racing and was shown on their invoice as "1 x Weber manifold (no linkage)". I used the Jenvey throttle linkage as supplied by Emerald. I must say that Emerald are an excellent firm to deal with. I had a lot to learn, and they always answered emails within 24 hours - brilliant service.

Regarding MPG, I used to get an average of 24mpg, I now get an average of about 29. During a steady run back from Malvern to Brighton, after the International, I got 34.6mpg. That was better than the previous year with Lucas injection of 24.9mpg.

 

[Ian Squire]

hello ian thanks given me some good ideas . ill draw up a bigger trigger wheel and mount behind like you did thanks . "note to all" the trigger wheel supplied by emerald is to small if you want one like ian's let me know and i'll get more than one cut. thanks gary ( bograt )

 

 

My trigger wheel came from Trigger-Wheels.com and was "Trigger wheel with 1/2 pilot hole. Size 7.25inch". It was later machined to fit on the machined front pulley, and was then assembled and balanced. Took me a while to work out how to do it. I'd seen some ugly ones with the trigger wheel on the front of the pulley - not very elegant.

Have you sorted out your temperature sender? I can post some info if you want. Cheers, Ian