bograt Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 hello all any one out there in tr6 land have experiance of fitting electronic fuel injection and managment system in particular emerald to a pi tr6 regards gary bograt. if no one has done this i'm about to undertake this. can keep you all informed if you want Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pfenlon Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 hello all any one out there in tr6 land have experiance of fitting electronic fuel injection and managment system in particular emerald to a pi tr6 regards gary bograt. if no one has done this i'm about to undertake this. can keep you all informed if you want Hello Gary, I had a 6 with EFI from a vauxhall system fitted by Mike Pumford from the wirral, still have a spare brain that I bought from him but I dont knmow if it would fit your system, keep us informed on how it works good luck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerrytr5 Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Yup, but not with Emerald. Developed a system in 1999/2000 using a John Wilcox ECU. What do you need to know? Jerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bograt Posted November 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Yup, but not with Emerald. Developed a system in 1999/2000 using a John Wilcox ECU. What do you need to know? Jerry any problems , things to aviode .how did it run . did you use the original setup with electronic injectors . any problems if you did Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerrytr5 Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 any problems , things to aviode .how did it run . did you use the original setup with electronic injectors . any problems if you did Jesus, how long have you got? I used standard manifolds with electronic injectors. You'll need to add temp sensors and an engine position sensor (crankshaft or dizzy) and a throttle potentiometer. You'll need to modify the fuel tank to incorporate a swirl pot and a larger outlet (for the fuel pump). If I was doing it again I would probably junk the standard butterflies and use a single throttle on the air box. It's a lot easier to do now than when I did mine (see megasquirt etc.). Well worth doing (117BHP at wheels and 39mpg at 70 mph). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk1PI Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Here's my homemade take on it... Freelander injectors and Discovery 2 Throttle body. Using Megasquirt and I have a very good base map if you need one http://triumphwestoz.blogspot.com/2009/10/more-slow-efi-progress.html http://triumphwestoz.blogspot.com/2009/10/efi-manifold-progress.html http://triumphwestoz.blogspot.com/2009/10/manifold-finished-almost-ready-for.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vernon Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Yes, I've done this. Emerald ecu, bosch injectors in bored out PI manifolds - jag xj6 2.9 injectors. Trigger wheel on bottom pulley, air temp sensor in standard plenum and water temp sensor in top housing opposite standard temp sensor. I also have a lambda sensor in the downpipes, but this isn't essential. Fuel rail was awkward to make - I may switch to a flexible sytem using MSD connectors, or I think series 3 XJ6s used something similar. This would allow use of an overhead linkage, although a single throtte body and no butterflies would get round this. You need a throttle poistion sensor mounted on the end of an extended throttle spindle (or on a single throttle body again). I use a single coil and the original distributor retained to distribute the sparks. Dave Walker at Emerald is very knowledgable and has base maps for TR6s - mine ran quite well immediately on the base map. 155bhp at the crank with the rather restrictive phoenix 6-3-1. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Jones Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Yes, on a Vitesse 2L. Megasquirt ECU and a homebuilt plenum manifold. Has been running nearly 5 years now and done quite alot (20K ish) of miles. Runs really well and much better fuel consumption! I would say that you should seriously consider using a system that can also give 3D ignition control, preferably via coilpacks. I ran injection-only for a year before adding the ignition part and that made as big a difference again. If you are planning to map it yourself then a wideband Lambda sensor is really useful and will likely save its purchase cost in fuel not wasted. If you like to tinker and are not afraid of a bit of electronics and computery stuff then the Megasquirt is well worth considering. Reasonably priced, effective and lots of real world information available. Have a look on www.msefi.com. it's the best general resource on injection and engine management on line and lots of US TR6s running on it. My original web pages on the injection only part http://www.tengaston.plus.com/Megasquirt1.htm A bit more on the ignition side here http://www.triumphowners.com/registry.cgi?section=triumph&vehicleID=574&i=4 Cheers Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk1PI Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) For the record... Nick is a guru on this stuff.. he has sent me a base map from his vitesse and my 2500 with TR5 type cam ran almost perfectly immediately.... I found that removing/blanking off the threaded vacuum fittings from the inlets and using the fitting on the plenum makes it far easier to mount a solid fuel rail. With one butterfly this is entirely satisfactory for vacuum to servo and ECU ... nice steady MPA readings using the old breather / idle air plenum hoses suitably adapted with brass fittings. Make sure the plenum hoses to the manifolds are in good condition or replace with ne silicon hose as if one splits you effectively have an open throttle!!! D section fuel rails are cheaply availible from DIY EFI websites but ensure the machining of injector pockets is done with correct tools and lube as aluminium can be tricky to cut without bit chatter. http://www.rossmachineracing.com/ I would say a wideband Lambda is essential to good tuning... why go EFI and then be in the dark as to the mixture!!!???? Useful links: http://trigger-wheels.com/store/ http://www.diyautotune.com/ Edited November 30, 2009 by Mk1PI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6pack Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hello all .. I have the Emerald ECU system fitted to TR6 I recently bought. I will not be able to give any advice on this .. just my experiences so far .. and I could also use a bit of help ... It had not been fitted particularly well and it has been back to Dave at Emerald about 4 times. The throttle potentiometer was not correctly mounted and kept coming loose and destroying my fuel mix settings. I think I finally got it sorted but have not been out for a long enough run to find out yet .. Car is now in it's winter airbubble and I am out of country. The engine map seems to have been set up mainly for track use .. which isn't a great problem as I don't use it to go shopping in !! ... It flies on the open road .. However I'd be intersted in anybodies ideas on a more balanced map for touring use .. How do you go about changing the ECU map .. Also I don't have a Lambda sensor .. how does this help things .. my fuel economy is only round 22mpg at the moment. One annoying problem is that when I go around bends with a low fuel level the engine cuts out !! ... Is this something to do with the need for a swirlpot that Jerry mentions .. Cheers .. Brian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6pack Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hi Gary, I'd love to know how you get on with this .. and I'll certainly share my experiences with you once I get back on the road .. In fact your post has just encouraged me to find out a whole lot more about this system .. Cheers Brian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk1PI Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) The engine map seems to have been set up mainly for track use .. which isn't a great problem as I don't use it to go shopping in !! ... It flies on the open road .. However I'd be intersted in anybodies ideas on a more balanced map for touring use .. How do you go about changing the ECU map .. Also I don't have a Lambda sensor .. how does this help things .. my fuel economy is only round 22mpg at the moment. Cheers .. Brian An good ECU engine map should be able to cope with both touring +35mpg and track days maximum bhp. Wideband Lambda (which measures AFR accurately under nearly all conditions) is used to tune the engine to the desired mixture at any given load and rpm based on AFR... hence say 12.5:1 at high loads for track days and 15:1 for greater for cruising in overdrive. Megasquirt has a desired AFR table with a 12 x 12 matrix of revs versus MAP (Manifold depression). You enter the desired AFR which gives either economy or power and then fine tune either on the road or dyno I think using mass production component wherever possible adapted to Triumph technology is the key... OEM stuff is exhaustively tested and very reliable. I bet the TPS sensor on your car is not stock part whereas a throttle body of almost any modern vehicle will be a few quid on Ebay and be virtually indestructible... I know it's a modern part on a classic car but this is an EFI thread!!! Edited November 30, 2009 by Mk1PI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6pack Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Haha ,, yes indeed ,,, we are well past the "purist debate" ... I just had a new throttle POT from Emerald fitted and car was running nice on the way home but not had a chance to go for longish run to check fuel economy yet. Prior to this changes in temperature would wildly affect the running .... but the throttle pot could be moved from side to side by vibration .. and by hand ,, It is now mounted very securely. I would love to get set up to even get close to 30mpg when touring let alone the 35mpg you mention .. ,,, Would you recommend getting a Lambda fitted to help do this ... Bograt .... When you get back on the forum I hope I am not hijacking your thread ... I hope my experiences and the information and comments coming in will help you as well .. .. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk1PI Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Haha ,, yes indeed ,,, we are well past the "purist debate" ... I just had a new throttle POT from Emerald fitted and car was running nice on the way home but not had a chance to go for longish run to check fuel economy yet. Prior to this changes in temperature would wildly affect the running .... but the throttle pot could be moved from side to side by vibration .. and by hand ,, It is now mounted very securely. I would love to get set up to even get close to 30mpg when touring let alone the 35mpg you mention .. ,,, Would you recommend getting a Lambda fitted to help do this ... Bograt .... When you get back on the forum I hope I am not hijacking your thread ... I hope my experiences and the information and comments coming in will help you as well .. .. Lambda or O2 sensor is fitted in the exhaust so it can see all cylinders exhaust so past the flange on a standard TR downpipe or at the collector on a 6-3-1 or 6-1 (6-2-2 don't even start me ... ) Modern wideband are heated and calibrated to see mixture from 10:1 AFR to 20:1 AFR. Older narrow band Lambda are only accurate in a very narrow window of AFR around stoichimetric (14.7:1) and useless for power or economy tuning. They are really just to try and keep catalytic convertors happy. http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mwire.htm#ego You can then see the result of your fuel input as to what mixture the engine is running. Sounds like your EFI might be biased or wholly set up off the throttle (TPS) rather than Manifold depression and TPS. This will not help mpg as the PI's standard throttle bodies are very 'all or nothing' due to big "chokes" and hence most of the fine tuning for economy is through a very limited part of the throttle travel... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
simonjrwinter Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 I wouldn't mind betting there are plenty of us on this forum who would seriously consider the EFI route. If somebody was prepared to compile a step by step guide and offer modified components on an exchange basis, as well as readily available parts, I wouldn't mind betting there would be a market for it. Certainly the advantages of much better fuel economy, better performance and greater reliability make it a no-brainer for me over originality. Is there anyone interested in giving it a go? Simon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Well, each to their own, and I admire the effort and brainpower that goes into these setups. However, for me, one of the car's attractions is that it doesn't have electronics. So much so that I was disconsterned to find The Shed has an electronic dizzie, and I'm plotting to remove it. However, for those who enjoy such things there is also a piece on page 19 of the December TRaction, don't know if the contributor ever appears on the forum. Ivor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6pack Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 I should just add that when I said my system was poorly fitted earlier that it was NOT Emerald that installed the system .. it was the previous owner ... I have just found out that Dave at Emerald has a new improved sysytem on the market that offers the ability to change between 3 different set ups from the cockpit and I am in touch with him about a possible upgrade to my system incorporating O2 sensor .. Gary .. that system is the K3 ECU ...... is that the one you are putting in ... Triple mapping ? I want it hahaa ... Imagine a drive with mum shopping mode, distance cruising mode and a full on attack mode all from the cockpit .... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
had17462 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 I for one would be very interested in this system ,but i haven,t even got my engine back together yet,i did buy an old vauxhall senator 3.0 last year and took all the bits off that but reading the above i think its gone way past 1990.s technology . nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6pack Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Nick ... Here is the link .. it is a very informative site as well .. http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_k3.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 That Vitesse of Nick's is an impressive bit of engineering - I've seen it a few times and inspected underbonnet with interest. No question, the man knows what he's about, and well worth listening to. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bograt Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hello all , thanks for all reply's so far , i have brought most of the parts and they arrived today . i will keep a record and picture stage by stage . i'm going to keep the six buterfly's caus emerald said this would be best . i'm a bit of a wiz with electrics and also an engineer by trade so i have a fair chance of making it all work ( fingers and toes crossed ) , i'm rebiulding a mildly hot engine at the same time so it will take me to after xmas 09 to finish . if any one is close to m29 manchester then they are welcome to come and have a look tea provided! you bring the bisciuts . i will proberly offer a kit after maybe even a fit service. incidentley i have used all new injectors etc , this will give me a fighting chance on first fire up . keep you all informed , if i knew how to do a web site i'd publish all the info Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi all, I've been following this thread with interest as I was also considering EFI on my TR. I have been looking at the Megasquirt system but there is so much information, it has clouded what I really need and need to purchase. My question is, has anyone fitted the Megasquirt system to a TR6 that could let me know exactly (in simpler terms), what I need in terms of bits and pieces and the best possible way to achieve this?. Cheers Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk1PI Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 (edited) Not to a TR6 but you are welcome to have a look at my 2500PI ... I'm in Stoneville I agree that te Megasquirt site is over complicated but the basic needs to get a good running engine are actually pretty simple. Here is a relatively comprehensive list Trigger wheel 36-1adapted for TR6 front pulley VR sensor plug and shielded wire for 36-1 pulley EDIS 6 unit (Ex Ford)and loom plugs Ford Coil pack. Fabricate bracket for holding sensor Megasquirt 2 ECU and loom (DIY Autotune) Megasquirt Relay / Fuse panel (DIY Autotune) Fuel Pressure regulator Ford Falcon XR6 Injector Loom S/H Ford Falcon 6 -free 6 x Freelander injectors - Ebay 40 quid Extruded fuel rail $40 US BOre to suit injectors and fabricate clamping GM Coolant sensor GM Inlet temp sensor S/H Throttle body and TPS (Ford Falcon?) I used LR Discovery 2 Auxillary idle air valve ex Volvo / Audi /VW Inlet trunking to (retained TR?)air filter housing (I used Ford Falcon) Bore Triumph throttle bodies to suit injectors. Plug Triumph throttle body throttle shaft holes and vacuum fittings Assorted fuel, vacuum and oil breather hosing . Fuel pump - you need 43psi so any Bosch will do + Swirl pot Fuel lines... PI lines should suffice with suitable adaptors With the benefit of one conversion already done I could point out things that would allow a second to be done quicker and more cheaply as I persued several development dead ends. Edited December 1, 2009 by Mk1PI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bograt Posted December 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi all, I've been following this thread with interest as I was also considering EFI on my TR. I have been looking at the Megasquirt system but there is so much information, it has clouded what I really need and need to purchase. My question is, has anyone fitted the Megasquirt system to a TR6 that could let me know exactly (in simpler terms), what I need in terms of bits and pieces and the best possible way to achieve this?. Cheers Tony hello tony i looked at megasquirt , but desided on emerald as its a one stop shop , and no messing with second hand parts your not sure of . they have provided a good starter map that i can use untill the engine is run in then i can put it on a rolling road for final tuning . regards gary ( bograt ) have a nice day u'all . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Cheers fella's. I will also look at the Emerald unit and do a lot more studying, there's a lot I need to know before I undertake this transformation.. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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