simon iregbu Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Although I have just finished on restoration project which took a mere 13 years in November. I am now in the States working and found that I had nothing to do in the evenings. I have now bought myself another restoration project (1968 TR250), this one I hope will not take as long (famous last words). The thing of it is that the engine had been taken out by a previous owner, anciliaries removed including the head. I believe that it was just left to sit outside for an indefinite period. Luckily I have a spare engine (fro a TR6) that came with my purchase that I could use but I would like to have the original engine in the car when it is restored. The problem is that the bores are covered with rust and all sorts of other stuff, and the pistons look like they will not move in the bores. The pushrod lifters are still in but caked in pretty good as well, and then the distibuter drive and camshaft are another story. I don't know when the original dismantling took place but it has been left for a considerable time. Is there an easy way to dismantle an engine in this condition. What is the best penetrating oil/solution that will help me get all these parts out, as i am sure that WD40 is not up to the job. I haven't taken the sump cover off so I don't know what the bottom end looks like yet. I will be attempting this once I have cleaned the engine down a bit. Any suggestions will be most appriciated. Simon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Neil Russell Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Fill the pots with parrafin and leave for a couple of weeks. then strip the engine down, take the crank out and leave the rods and pistons hanging in space, then use a round baulk of stout timber just smaller than the bore and try to drift them out. it depends how rusted in the bores they are?? its a pig of a job and I do not know of any other way other than perseverance. Neil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Crawley Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Try filling the bores with diesel & letting this soak through several times but if that don’t work, I would not still worry too much. After 10 years of idleness, even inside a garage, my pistons were seized solid in the bores & no amount of soaking would shift them so I just dismantled everything else around them. When I was left with just the pistons & con-rods dangling in the block I got brutal with a 4lb lump hammer & a piece of 2” x 2” soft wood & they came out without too much trouble. In all probability the pistons will be trash anyway (I would certainly not re-use them) so even if they break up it’s no big deal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Crawley Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Niel, boom boom, you beat me by less than a minute! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marvmul Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Simon -Did you think about the extra costs and work once you have the engine dismantled? When there is a lot of rust, it's not just a complete rebuild that is needed, but you will have to replace parts that are servicable in a normal rebuild and perhaps there will be more machining work to do :block deck, bores for the cam followers (the you have to find oversize cam followers...),line boring the camshaft bearings.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Neil Russell Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Great minds think alike Richard! Simon. You have two options if you want the original engine. the first involves your good second hand block a file and a set of stamps (Joke) the second means a full strip down and hot tank before you start a build. Don't worry too much about the state of the lifters and cam. if you are doing a proper re-build then it is far simpler to assume nothing is serviceable anyhow. assuming that your engine has been affected by crank thrust etc in the past then as a std build you will be doing a full block prep, which means, cam should be line bored anyway. I have never seen a block so corroded that the followers won't come out? you may however prove me wrong. Strip it and have a good look, then go from there. condition of the bare block is your first step, check for severe pitting once fully stripped. nothing is ever so worn that it cannot be re-built, its only ever a question of the folding stuff. Neil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marvmul Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Note on line boring the camshaft bearings : the 6 cylinder has no removable bearings as far as a know. The cam is turning directly in the block. So if the bearing surfaces are damaged, you have to incorporate bearings in the block for the first time. It has been done in TR 6 cyl race engines to avoid scrapping a block on wich a lot of money has been spent. After fitting the bearings you have to line boring these bearings again... I didn't say Simon should throw away his original engine, only that he should think about the possible surplus of work and costs. Perhaps it's a good thing that all minds don't think alike when someone is looking for help or advise in this forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
simon iregbu Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 I take on board all your comments and I know that it is not going to be an easy path, but then anyone restoring a triumph knows that. I am trying to keep everything original as i am just that anal. Just to update, I took the sump of which still had some oil in (and alot of sludge). Got the oil pump out (after cutting my finger pretty bad) and the distributor drive. Took the main bearings off as well, which to my surprise did not loo too worn. The only problem that i have now is getting to all the big-end bearings. With som of the pistons in the position that they are acesss to these is nigh on impossible. I will take another look tonight as I had had enough last night. Can I get the camshaft out by removing the plug at the end of the block and 'tapping' it with a soft faced mallet????? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 All, Are 250 engines so different from later Triumph six cylinders? NR and CRC above write of hammering the pistons out with a timber drift, implying that they were pushing them out downwards. This doesn't work with later engines - the pistons go in/come out from the top. Educate me, please! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
simon iregbu Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 I have to agree with you John on this one. Maybe the meant that it is easier to get the moving first by hitting from the top. I know that when I built my TR6 engine I had to put the pistons in from the top. And looking the block last night it does not look different. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philrylance Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Simon Note that the previous advice advocated stripping everything around the pistons and removing the crank. Then you will have a hole at the top, and a hole at the bottom. You can then choose which way to delicately clout the pistons, but you will find it much easier to hit from the top and remove from the bottom i.e. no con-rods etc to get in the way. 'Clout' is an old northern term meaning to remove delicately with tender love great care and affection - with a bloody big hammer!! Not to be confused with an item of ladied underwear as in 'She's gorra great pair on clouts on view!' Happy clouting Phil Rylance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonlar Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Generally a lot less rust and usually a bit of lube left below the pistons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
graeme Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Phil, Can you clarify how you would remove the conrods before 'clouting' the pistons out. I would imagine the little ends might be difficult to remove ??? Regards Graeme Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest dolomiteman Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 .....as well as parafin and diesel which are both good agents for this (and incidentally added together in the correct quantities make 'plus-gas') I have had good success with freeing seized and rusted bores previously with automatic transmission fluid....poured in hot! You may find corrosion above and below the pistons so investigate whether its worth turning the block upside down and leaving the liqiud to stand both ways..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Phil, Can you clarify how you would remove the conrods before 'clouting' the pistons out. I would imagine the little ends might be difficult to remove ??? Regards Graeme You don't The little ends/conrods can only be removed once the piston is out of the bore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Neil Russell Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Presumably you mean that because the crank is seized, due to the pistons being seized in the bore, you cannot remove the crankshaft to allow the piston to come out through the bottom? In all fairness to others on this board, I have never fully stripped a straight six triumph before, my knowledge is limited to Pinto, small block ford V8, crossflow, BMC a series, rover V8, Chevrolet V8, Cosworth, vauxhall XE 16v etc etc. so is there something that stops you from removing a piston from the bottom of the block once a crank and caps have been removed? I have always removed old pistons downward wherever possible and installed new from the top. If the pistons need to come out from the top then you will be fighting against the ridge on the top of the bore which is formed in the area between the top of the piston and first ring landing. Assuming you can remove the bearing caps on the bottom end to free off the con rods, then I suggest that you have 2 options. The first is to accept that your pistons are scrap and use a long drift to hammer them out from the bottom. The second is to take your seized block to a machine shop and pay someone to strip it for you. obviously I have not seen your particular engine so the methods I may use to free off seized componants may differ depending on the severity of the seizure? Can you access the main bearing caps securing the crank to the block?? I do not understand which bits you cannot get at? Neil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marvmul Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 On the TR 6 cylinder engines, when you would try to remove the pistons downwards, the pistons will hit the bridges for the main bearings, before they are out of the bores. So the pistons can't be tilted sidewards to clear these bridges. Idem for the TR 4 cylinders. This is what John R Davies was saying in his reaction above. The crank and caps can be removed. Other possibilities to free pistons : applying heat, or better : put the block on a press, and repeatedly heat and cool the block while applying a constant pressure on the piston. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Neil Russell Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 So on that basis, when stripping down a six cyl engine (assuming it wasn't seized) you would lower the piston in the bore, ream out the top of the cylinder to remove the carbon ring then extract the piston and con-rod from the top! You learn something new every day. Neil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Crawley Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 I was able to get all of my big end caps off without too much trouble. Simon, perhaps you’ve been unlucky with the positioning of the crank last time it stopped. Even if you can’t get to them all, take out the ones you can & if it’s only one or two left, you may find things can start to be moved enough to make them accessible. To others; I never said anything about removing the pistons & rods through the bottom of the block! Once you clout each piston on the crown & get it moving, get rid of as much of the rust as you can with emery cloth, lubricate the bores, turn the block over & you should have no trouble knocking them out from the bottom - I was assuming just a little licence here! Make sure you “drift” on the alloy piston casting (alternate each side) & don’t hit the con-rod or small end casting. Don’t worry about any wear ridge in the bore, it wont stop you getting them out. The rings will be trash anyway & in all probability either already broken (if not they will be once they hit the wear ridge!) or seized in the piston groove; the most wear is at the top so if they are stuck they wont expand to hit the ridge anyway. Re the camshaft, you should be able to knock it out from the back end if you can get the steel “plug” out with it still in place. They usually rotate on their axis when you hit them with an old screwdriver to knock a bloody great hole in them to lever them out. Is the engine really rusted up that bad! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
simon iregbu Posted March 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 The engine is pretty bad !!!!!!!! I am not sure how long it has been in its current condition but there is alot of normal oil all over the outside and i have not really got round to cleaning this off. The internal upper components camshaft, followers and pistons look to have been exposed to the elements for quite a while. Currently I have managed to remove the all of the main bearings and the big ends from cylinders 2,3,4,5.Unfortunately 1 and 6 are in such a positing that I cannot get to one of the bolts. I have given these a fairly hefty hit with a hammer and block of wood but they did not move. i hit the wood so hard that it started to split with no evident movement of the piston. Currently I have left the bores with pnetrating oil in them and will go back an check in a couple of days to see if this has had any affect. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Neil Russell Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 without seeing the state of the current situation, can the now loose crank not be pivoted around the con rods on 1 and 6 to allow the con rod to swing to give better access or is it just not that easy?? Neil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
simon iregbu Posted March 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 The crank only rotates about 10-15 deg which does still not allow any access to the final bolt on cyls 1 and 6. With the torque on the big ends bolts I need to get either a socket or ring spanner on And I cannot do this as there is not enough clerance to the block to get the spanner over the bolt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Neil Russell Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 would an open jaw "metrinch" spanner that grips on the flats rather than the corner do the trick? Neil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Neil Russell Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 would an open jaw "metrinch" spanner that grips on the flats rather than the corner do the trick? Neil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Neil Russell Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 another though is to take the block to a machine shop and press the pistons downward to the point before they contact the main bearing bridges? to lift the bottom ends clear of the block? sorryif this is of no help, just trying to give ideas. Neil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.