Newbie - Just Checking In

[Dave Larnder]

First, thanks for all the warm welcomes, and the "new" information!

 

Secondly, I had to laugh at all the countries I have heard from on just this post! On this side of the pond, "British Sports Car" means the United States and [a little] Canada. And............................oh yes...........Britain. Needless to say, I have egg on my face for thinking in my "war baby" paradigm.

 

Many thanks to Viv for the Forward Radiator info - totally new to me, and I thought that I was well-read onTriumph history.

 

Trevor, I will have to find out about the paint. I have contacted the two POs. Funny you should ask about my 1958 TR. In my old photos, I found one that showed my Maryland 1962 license plate. So, last year, I contacted the State of Maryland to see what they could find. A young lady there, bless her heart, has gone above and beyond the call of duty to find my Commission Number. She is reduced to going thru TENS OF THOUSANDS of micro fiche (horribly tedious task) records to see if she can find my car. And she even refused to deposit the $12 standard fee I sent in with my application. Maybe some day, she will find it...

 

Don, I think that we met in Bowie more in 1986 than 1996!! I had it about 1985 based on some of the old Lotus spreadsheets I had done on Triumph-related data. I can appreciate your input on the interior colors getting resprayed at the factory. NOT TO MENTION THE DEALERS, who played all kinds of tricks to sell a car, swapping out interiors, wheels, transmissions, yada yada yada. When you see a BRG car on the lot with a blue interior, you know damn well...

 

Jean, I am surprised at my being surprised to see a Belgium Triumph Club. Haven't I heard of the famous Jabbeke run? My apologies to les Belgiques (if there is such a word).

 

Menno, sitting there in Holland with THIRTY TR3-Bs !!??

 

Brian, thanks for the poop on the SMALLER disc brakes. I knew that they were different, but I didn't know HOW they were different.

 

And lastly, Brian, thanks for the info on the lack of a right-hand hole for the steering column. Makes sense, if they were all going to America.

 

Like I mentioned, this car has a GM electronic ignition, a rack and pinion steering system, and an electronic fan/thermostat with wires going all over the place. So, I will be hitting you-all up for recommendations; I am sure.

 

Right now I only have two projects, both minor: (1) to get the horns to work (I am going to learn to solder), which is probably due to the "splice" done on the new hot wire to come out of the new steering column and Moto Lita steering wheel also on the car. (I may keep the wheel, as it does have the Triumph shield in the middle.) and (2) to install the pockets on the outside of the door interior panels, as anything put in the door storage drops to the bottom of the door. This will probably involve removing the upholstery, stapling in the pockets, then re-installing the upholstery, as the rivets are not available from TRF.

 

Comments are welcomed!!

 

P.S. The PO told me that the car did not leak oil. I knew better, so I bought a drip pan before I got the car home. As it turns out, I don't need a pan. I need TWO pans! Is it possible for the TAIL LIGHTS to leak oil ???????????????

Hi George

As has bee said before, welcome to the Forum.

Yes! we have TR3B's here in Spain too, my friend in Alicante has one.

Have you ever seen the write up in Bill Piggott's book, "ORIGINAL TRIUMPH TR2/3/3A?" where he dedicates a small section to the model, which is also included in the section, "PRODUCTION CHANGES" from TS1 to TCF2804 Dec. 62.

 

Dave

[TR3BGeorge]

[quote

Have you ever seen the write up in Bill Piggott's book, "ORIGINAL TRIUMPH TR2/3/3A?" where he dedicates a small section to the model, which is also included in the section, "PRODUCTION CHANGES" from TS1 to TCF2804 Dec. 62.

 

Dave

 

 

Dave, thanx for the poop, but I had better confirm something with you about the book, as Bill Piggott has alot of books out there, some with nearly-identical titles. I have found "Original Triumph TR2/3/3A, Vol. 1" by Bill Piggott and Mark Hughes. It is a hardcopy, dated April 1998. THIS sounds like your book. Amazon.com has 8 of them, starting at $100. No offense to Bill, but THAT will be a cold day in hell...

 

Also by Bill Piggott, is "Original Tr, the Restorer's Guide, TR2 thru 6" by him and Paul Debois. I don't think that THIS is the book.

 

On the first book, the date is a little scary. I would LOVE to get his writeup on the TSF and TCF series, but I already have several of his books with duplicated material, and I would hate to buy another one and it NOT be the one with the TR3B information.

 

So, anything else you can provide would be helpful. Although, I don't know what that could be, other than a photo of the book jacket.

 

Thanks again,

 

George

[TR3BGeorge]

Hi George, Looks like a nice car. I am owner of TCF1255L and have built a data base of TR3Bs that are still around. TCF1278L has been on file since 2003 with engine CT35663F (must probaly be E) and body EB68598. Both numbers do not match a TR3B, so I maybe the wrong numbers have been provided? Can you update me so I can add the correct info to the 400-plus data of TR3Bs I have in the data base?

Hey klashorst. I had the same concerns that you have when I contacted the "previous previous owner," the one who did all the work on the car. I was DOUBLY concerned, as the commission plate is not an original plate. I explained my concerns to him, and he was able to tell me this: The original plate DID show TCF1278L, and he was the one that replaced it. I did not ask him about the chassis plates, as they are BOTH held on with small screws and not rivets, and I did not know what to look for. I asked him if he were aware that the engine was from a 1958 TR. He said that the shop that did the engine work swapped out his original engine for one out of a TR4. So, I rechecked the engine number. It is NOT TS35663E, as I assumed, but looks like CT35(663-hard to decipher)E.

 

I did not know enough about the two brass body plates to ask any questions. All I know is that the top one is supposed to be painted the same color as the body. Both of these are shiny brass, and held on with screws. They read EB68598 and 1073403.

 

So, if it turns out that the last three owners of this car have a stolen car, whoever wants it back had better come ARMED.

 

I recently looked at the numbers on a TR3 on eBay. The commission number was TS677XXL, and the two body plates were EB6633X, and 107109X. This indicates that the EB plate should have a slightly smaller number than the commission number. (The second plate means nothing to me.) Well, if there were 82,000 TR2-3As, and over 2,000 TR3Bs, my EB number should be in the 80,000s, and not 66330. So, you tell me what it looks like.

 

The body panels are post-60000, that is all I can tell you.

 

Any information will be greatly appreciated. I am the current caretaker of this automobile, and I would like to know as much about it as possible.

 

I look forward to your thoughts.

 

George

 

P.S. I have not ordered the BMIHT Certificate yet, as funds are limited and I have other priorities on the car. I am hoping just to find out what the car originally came with, and what its colors were. If I recall correctly, the certificate does NOT give engine number or body numbers.

[BrianC]

I did not know enough about the two brass body plates to ask any questions. All I know is that the top one is supposed to be painted the same color as the body. Both of these are shiny brass, and held on with screws. They read EB68598 and 1073403.

 

P.S. I have not ordered the BMIHT Certificate yet, as funds are limited and I have other priorities on the car. I am hoping just to find out what the car originally came with, and what its colors were. If I recall correctly, the certificate does NOT give engine number or body numbers.

 

AFAIK these brass plates should be attached with screws. The ones on my current (and I think previous) TR3A were, and were also painted body colour (although maybe by a previous owner), but are now polished.

 

The commission plate should be rivetted, although on many restored cars (including mine) they are screwed on. Note that on original plates, the text is embossed, whereas on the repro plates the text is simply printed. Although I have a blank repro plate, I decided to retain the old, slightly decaying, original plate and simply stripped the remaining black paint and polished the aluminium. Not ideal, but at least it's a true id.

 

If I were you, I would invest in the Heritage trace ASAP - who knows how long this service will be available (and at a reasonable price)? Info on the certificate is:

 

• Commission No

• Type

• Building Date

• Body Shell No

• Tyre Size

• Body Colour

• Trim Colour & Type

• Delivery Destination

• Other Specifications and Equipment

• Special Notes

 

[TR 2100]

I did not know enough about the two brass body plates to ask any questions.

All I know is that the top one is supposed to be painted the same color as the body.

Both of these are shiny brass, and held on with screws.

They read EB68598 and 1073403.

 

Hi George,

 

The EB number is a body shell number. Typically, these are slightly

lower than the TS commission number since engines/chassis were

supplied for other cars such as the Doretti, Italia and Peerless/Warwick.

I say "typically" because sometimes a bodyshell (or engine) could be

well out of sequence with the commission number.

 

Your EB 68598 number is unquestionably from a 3A, NOT a 3B, so it

seems that someone has used a 3A body to restore a 3B, or even done

a naughty and switched a complete 3B identity to a 3A.

 

The other number is a "vehicle" number - these numbers were allocated

across the whole range of vehicles manufactured by the factory.

Bill Piggott should be able to trace the car that this was originally attached

to but the number is consistent with a 3A and you're not really trying to

find out about the 3A, are you. It's the 3B identity you want to trace.

 

I should know the EB series for the 3Bs, but I don't. I'm not sure whether

they continued on from the 3A series (I would think so) or if a new series

was started. I'm sure someone out there will confirm.

I am not aware of any difference between late 3A (i.e. post 60,001) shells

and the 3B shells.

 

AlanR

Edited July 15, 2009 by TR 2100

[klashorst]

Hey klashorst. I had the same concerns that you have when I contacted the "previous previous owner," the one who did all the work on the car. I was DOUBLY concerned, as the commission plate is not an original plate. I explained my concerns to him, and he was able to tell me this: The original plate DID show TCF1278L, and he was the one that replaced it. I did not ask him about the chassis plates, as they are BOTH held on with small screws and not rivets, and I did not know what to look for. I asked him if he were aware that the engine was from a 1958 TR. He said that the shop that did the engine work swapped out his original engine for one out of a TR4. So, I rechecked the engine number. It is NOT TS35663E, as I assumed, but looks like CT35(663-hard to decipher)E.

 

I did not know enough about the two brass body plates to ask any questions. All I know is that the top one is supposed to be painted the same color as the body. Both of these are shiny brass, and held on with screws. They read EB68598 and 1073403.

 

So, if it turns out that the last three owners of this car have a stolen car, whoever wants it back had better come ARMED.

 

I recently looked at the numbers on a TR3 on eBay. The commission number was TS677XXL, and the two body plates were EB6633X, and 107109X. This indicates that the EB plate should have a slightly smaller number than the commission number. (The second plate means nothing to me.) Well, if there were 82,000 TR2-3As, and over 2,000 TR3Bs, my EB number should be in the 80,000s, and not 66330. So, you tell me what it looks like.

 

The body panels are post-60000, that is all I can tell you.

 

Any information will be greatly appreciated. I am the current caretaker of this automobile, and I would like to know as much about it as possible.

 

I look forward to your thoughts.

 

George

 

P.S. I have not ordered the BMIHT Certificate yet, as funds are limited and I have other priorities on the car. I am hoping just to find out what the car originally came with, and what its colors were. If I recall correctly, the certificate does NOT give engine number or body numbers.

 

Hi George,

 

Thanks for the quick reply. BMIHT certificates do carry the commission number, the body number and the engine number. Also the original colour scheme and options that were with the car. Also port of destinantion. I can send you a copy of my trace/certificate, so you can see for yourself. Please send me your e-mail address so I can mail that from home. TR3B bodies were numbered in a sequential order for both series TSF and TCF and were always kollowed by ../TSF, so the bodies of the TCF cars like yours should have a body number around 1855/TSF. TCF1264 has body 1839/TSF, TCF1268 has body 1846/TSF and TCF1339 has body 1886/TSF, so it figures that your car could have 1856/TSF as body number. However that is not sure as the factory was not always following the "logical" order as is demonstrated by TCF1339.

 

Hope this helps a bit. Regards, Klashorst

[BrianC]

BMIHT certificates do carry the commission number, the body number and the engine number.

That's interesting. The trace document for my TR3A is one of the old 'Standard Register' type produced by Bill Piggott many years ago (we've had the car since 1977) and definitely does not include the engine no. However the certificate for Lynda's TR4A is a BMIHT one and does include the engine number. Perhaps it's worth investing in a BMIHT certificate for my TR3A to get some additional information.

 

Nevertheless, even without it, the engine no is on the original logbook/registration document for UK cars. Even if this is the case for overseas cars, as in the UK, the original document may no longer be available and subsequent continuation logbooks and replacement registration documents only give the current details, so if the engine hs been changed or increased in capacity, or the body colour has changed, you need the BMIHT certificate for the original details.

[Don Elliott]

The following site lists details on over 50 TR3Bs.

 

http://www.trregistry.com/start/registry/html/TR3/index.htm

 

This site list details (2 pages) on over 170 TR3Bs still existing.

 

http://web.tiscali.it/registroitalianotr3/english.htm

[Dave Larnder]

Hi George

 

This thread is turning out to be very interesting if not controversial.

My BMIHT certificate from Anders Clausager their archivist only states that my TS 28650-L was manufactured by the Standard Motor Company at Canley Coventry in 1958. No engine number or bodyshell number nor colour is mentioned.

Second point is that in the same book by Bill Piggott in the chapter called "Identification,Dating and Production Figures" states that in the factory build records held by the BMIHT no records relating to the EB numbers being known to survive.It also says that the EB prefix has a number near, but usually higher than, the car's commission number. This can be explained by numbers being allocated to spare bodies used for repairing damaged vehicles.

The other plate attached to the front bulkhead that had a six or seven figure number was allocated to the bare bodyshell by Mulliners whereas the EB plate was a S-T one allocated to a complete trimmed body. The Mulliner numbers fell into eight different groups from shell number 726001 right up to shell number 1066000 and over.

My interest deepens, I await further info from other members which I will follow intensely.

 

Dave

[klashorst]

The following site lists details on over 50 TR3Bs.

 

http://www.trregistry.com/start/registry/html/TR3/index.htm

 

This site list details (2 pages) on over 170 TR3Bs still existing.

 

http://web.tiscali.it/registroitalianotr3/english.htm

 

Hi Don, as stated earlier in the string, I have compiled a data base of TR3Bs that are still in existence and have over 400 now on file. This is a private exercise of mine, though Mike Ellis of the TR Register has a copy for archiving and safe keeping. I don't share the data base but if someone wants to know about a TR3B then I can verify. TCF1278L for instance, that started this chain, I had on file since 2003, located in NY.

[Dave Larnder]

[quote

Have you ever seen the write up in Bill Piggott's book, "ORIGINAL TRIUMPH TR2/3/3A?" where he dedicates a small section to the model, which is also included in the section, "PRODUCTION CHANGES" from TS1 to TCF2804 Dec. 62.

 

Dave

 

 

Dave, thanx for the poop, but I had better confirm something with you about the book, as Bill Piggott has alot of books out there, some with nearly-identical titles. I have found "Original Triumph TR2/3/3A, Vol. 1" by Bill Piggott and Mark Hughes. It is a hardcopy, dated April 1998. THIS sounds like your book. Amazon.com has 8 of them, starting at $100. No offense to Bill, but THAT will be a cold day in hell...

 

Also by Bill Piggott, is "Original Tr, the Restorer's Guide, TR2 thru 6" by him and Paul Debois. I don't think that THIS is the book.

 

On the first book, the date is a little scary. I would LOVE to get his writeup on the TSF and TCF series, but I already have several of his books with duplicated material, and I would hate to buy another one and it NOT be the one with the TR3B information.

 

So, anything else you can provide would be helpful. Although, I don't know what that could be, other than a photo of the book jacket.

 

Thanks again,

 

George

Send me your e mail address and I will scan in the relevant 4 pages. It appears that you have the right book, but I only paid £24.99 for it from TR Bitz when I bought the car in 2004. I think it is an excellent reference and along with William's book on restoration, the two proved invaluable when I did my recon, finished in October last year and now enjoying the Spanish sunshine. Our local club webpage is www.a-c-c.es, and I have just received my Club TR Register - Espana, which unfortunately is in Madrid some 400 kms away so I cant drop in for a beer too often.

 

Dave

[TR 2100]

The other plate attached to the front bulkhead that had a six or seven figure number

was allocated to the bare bodyshell by Mulliners whereas the EB plate was a S-T one

allocated to a complete trimmed body.

The Mulliner numbers fell into eight different groups from shell number 726001 right

up to shell number 1066000 and over.

My interest deepens, I await further info from other members which I will follow intensely.

 

 

Dave,

 

I don't think that's right but I don't want to give any misleading information

with half the story so I'll leave it to the Pigg, or Mike Ellis to explain further.

I would certainly like to have confirmation - even though I don't own a 3 any

more, I'm still keen to know the history.

 

AlanR

[Guest ntc]

Hi

I have a one of Bills books that gives info on the 3b with the Italia if that is any good best guess at date 1996

 

Regards

Neil

[klashorst]

Hello Folks. I have just purchased TCF 1278 L. It has been a 46-year-long quest, since my first car (1958 TR3A) back in 1961 in high school. I know that I will have questions, and look forward to your expertise. For example, the PO had converted her to electronic ignition and rack and pinion steering. She was a basket case when he purchased her, and over a 10-year period, she has become a beautiful automobile. I will try to attach a photo; however, being my first post, the photo may end up in Peru.

 

Hi George, I just thi I have the info for you. Free, no costs. Some years ago there was an extensive story about the TR3B that I can send you. I think it will answer all your questions. Send me your e-mail address and it will be on its way. Regards, Klashorst

[Dave Larnder]

Dave,

 

I don't think that's right but I don't want to give any misleading information

with half the story so I'll leave it to the Pigg, or Mike Ellis to explain further.

I would certainly like to have confirmation - even though I don't own a 3 any

more, I'm still keen to know the history.

 

AlanR

 

Alan

All quoted from 'The Pigg's" book and as the archivist, I trust he has got it right.

 

Dave

[Dave Larnder]

Hi

I have a one of Bills books that gives info on the 3b with the Italia if that is any good best guess at date 1996

 

Regards

Neil

 

Hi Neil

 

What is the title of the Book? My one has info on the TR2 Francorchamps coupe as well, which our Belgian friends will know all about. As a matter of fact I got a video e mailed to me yesterday with one of them on.

 

Dave

[TR3BGeorge]

Hi George,

 

Thanks for the quick reply. BMIHT certificates do carry the commission number, the body number and the engine number. Also the original colour scheme and options that were with the car. Also port of destinantion. I can send you a copy of my trace/certificate, so you can see for yourself. Please send me your e-mail address so I can mail that from home. TR3B bodies were numbered in a sequential order for both series TSF and TCF and were always kollowed by ../TSF, so the bodies of the TCF cars like yours should have a body number around 1855/TSF. TCF1264 has body 1839/TSF, TCF1268 has body 1846/TSF and TCF1339 has body 1886/TSF, so it figures that your car could have 1856/TSF as body number. However that is not sure as the factory was not always following the "logical" order as is demonstrated by TCF1339.

 

Hope this helps a bit. Regards, Klashorst

To Klashorst and all concerned: Folks, I appreciate all this help in trying to clarify exactly what I am sitting on here!

 

If you wish to send me anything, my email address is tr3agabDELETE@gmail.com. (Obviously, delete the DELETE.) Also, as I get more information, I will pass it along to the previous previous owner who had all the work done, just to see what he can confirm.

 

Alot of what you have said makes perfect sense, TAKING THE OPTIMISTIC APPROACH: When the PPO got the car, it was a basket case, and alot of the panels had to be replaced or redone. Assuming that the firewall (bulkhead) was replaced, in appears that the body shop left the old body number and vehicle number plates on the old panel, probably figuring that it was more "legal" than shifting number plates around. (If this is the case, I would LOVE to have had the original plates!)

 

Klashorst, I REALLY appreciate your info on the TSF and TCF body numbers. Same to you AlanR, on the "Vehicle" number.

 

The car DOES have alot of post-60000 features, rear seat area, bolt-on windshield, rounded doors, e.g.. Some things are not measurable, like the gas tank neck, as the PPO had a stainless steel gas tank installed.

 

Of course, I am happy with what I have and love my new car. I am just trying to establish what exactly I am in love with! I feel like the old farmer who has had the same hammer for 50 years: it has had 3 different handles and 2 different heads.

 

I will order the Certificate right away, and start from there.

 

Thanx again to everyone,

 

George

[Don Elliott]

George - Check the link to Roadster Factory. They can sell you new body plates. But wait till you are sure what the correct numbers are from the heritage certificate. The brass plates ate made by Frank Angelini in Downington PA. Frank is often on this forum and occasionally, you might see him in Wiltshire. He owns a very nice TR250 and is finishing the restoration of his "Gray Lady", an early TR3A.

 

http://www.zeni.net/trf/miniTR2TR3/38.php?...80&s_ht=768

 

Frank has written about body plates here : -

 

http://www.britishcarforum.com/tikiwiki/ti...en+Body+ID+Tags