Guest trminator Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Hi all The subframe in my V8 could do with replacing or repair. I'll likely repair it if I can but would like a spare anyway. Can any of you clever 7 or 8ers out there tell me how I can differentiate between a genuine TR8, Rimmers or S & S subframe so I can tell which mine is. I would like to swap like for like to prevent any hassles. Are there any strong visual clues to their heritage? -Kyle Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest trminator Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Malcolm. If we can get a comprehensive answer to this it may be a good one to have on the FAQ page. -Kyle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Chris Draper Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Kyle, I think the modified subframes are quite flat in appearance whereas the TR8 subframe is a chunkier affair with considerable reinforcement on the top surface. I had a modified subframe on mine until an impact between the off-side front wheel and a kerb ripped it apart. When it was repaired, they fitted a TR8 subframe which looks much stronger - I seem to remember having some difficulty feeding a new rack through the reinforcing arches on the new sub-frame. Personally I'd rather have the TR8 version, although you'd probably have to use a lowering kit in order to get clearance for the bonnet to close. Incidentally, if my original subframe arm hadn't peeled back on impact, I'd probably have bent the chassis leg, so the relative lack of strength had it's uses! Just had a look at the standard sub-frame on Rimmers web-site, & I think from memory that modified sub-frame that I had looked pretty similar to that. I'll have a look at my sub-frame tonight & see if there are any obvious distinguishing features. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
andrewt Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 From the ones I have seen, the mounts (bridges over the rack) on the original are stamped out formed shapes with the box closed underneath with a seperate piece of tin. As such they have a lip for spot welds at either side of the bridge. These bridges would be very difficult to fabricate by hand. Any modified subframes I have seen have been made from box section steel or similar and although perfectly functional are noticeably different to see. I agree that the rack is a tight fit in a standard rack, in fact on my car it only comes out at one side (which is always the second side I try ) Chris: Of course you could always get a good Tr7 subframe, cut off the Tr7 engine mount, then cut up the rotten Tr8 subframe to re-use the mounts from it on the Tr7 frame. If you are doing this make careful measurements before cutting up the old frame or cut the mounts off the old one, bolt them to the engine, put the engine where you want it to be, bolt in the subframe then tack the mounts to it. Unbolt the frame (& mount bolts!) and weld it up solid on the bench. Easy! This is actually how i did my first Tr7 V8 subframe using mounts modified off an SD1 (very tight squeeze!). Have fun Andy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Chris Draper Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Andy, Think you misunderstood me - it was the modified subframe which was ripped apart; I now have a perfectly good TR8 subframe which is built like a brick out-house! Not easy to describe it though. Did have a look last night & the main thing I remember as being different from the old one is the huge box section arches over the rack which carry the engine mounts. Kyle, probably easiest to talk to one of the suppliers who may be able to help you identify the one you have. Incidentally, was looking through the paperwork for my car last night & it looks like it spent a couple of years in Co Antrim from 1996 to 1998. Good luck with the subframe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
andrewt Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Sorry Chris, the paragraph I attached your name to, was meant for Kyle. Oops, apologies for the confusion...... ??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest tr7 turbo Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 One of the main differences in V8 subframes has nothing to do with whether it is loweed or not,it is whether it is an original TR8 or a reproduction OE one.The main difference between these,and it may answere the question of the weak one mentioned above,is the originals have a strengthening web inside and the copies do not.If you are offered an original TR8 subframe put your gfinger in the holes and see if you can feel the webbing,if not you are being offered an aftermarket reproduction.Many of the reputable V8 converters modify original TR7 subframes and these are normally well converted. The next choice is do you want power steering,if you do the subframe must be made to original spec as the lowered ones allow PAS to be fitted.As it is difficult to source a power rack the choice really depends on where you want your engine mounted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest trminator Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Does anyone know how to tell the difference between the Rimmers and S&S cradles so I can establish which mine is? I'm sure I can rule out the possibility of mine being a TR8 subframe. -Kyle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Kyle, I'd mail SnS. I'm Sure Steve would use his digital camera and snap one for you. He's taken some excellent pictures of Martyn's rust :: Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest trminator Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 It's looking very like I am going to have to Malcolm. Sometimes the lads from S&S breeze in and offer us the benefit of their knowledge but nothing so far. Yep, I'll send them an email. -Kyle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stevew Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Kyle Would have breezed in earlier on this one,but been busy getting ready for Stoneleigh. The Rimmer subframe is a copy of the origianl factory item except for the strengthening webs inside which are missing as TR7turbo stated. Our subframe (which is used by other suppliers I might add) is based on converting a TR7 subframe. Just to throw more confusion onto the subject,Grinnall subframes are modified TR7 subframe but done very differently to ours,as is the Triumphtune item. It is very difficult to descibe the differences between them all,if you send me a photo of yours,I can tell you straight away which one you have got.We will have both ours and a Rimmer subframe on our stand this weekend. Just for the record,the reason that we don't use a factory subframe is mainly because of the bonnet clearance problems. The factory subframe had to accomadate a power rack and therefore the engine had to sit higher.To overcome this the factory eights had 1/2 inch spacers fitted between the subframe and chassis,they also had a lowered inlet manifold(for SU's or strombergs).When carrying out a conversion everyone used the SD1 engine along with the carbs that came with the engine.This meant that when using a factory subframe you needed to use more like 1 inch spacers between the chassis and subframe to gain bonnet clearance on the SU carbs.We felt at the time(and still do) that lowering the subframe by this amount alters the front suspension geometry to much. We also decided that most owners don't want power steering on a sports car(even though we are currently developing a power steering conversion)so we used the space left between the manual rack and sump to gain the bonnet clearance.The ideas on mounting are the same we have just made better use of the space.As we all know the lower the centre of gravity the better for handling. Another factor was cost,our subframes cost half as much as a factory item because you are paying for the conversion not the subframe(why buy a new subframe if yours is perfectly OK).Money is also saved because you do not have to purchase a lowering kit. The thing to remember is that the subframe posistions the engine,and everything else hangs of the engine,so this needs to be right. I read in another thread that someone had a problem with the gearbox remote fouling the transmission tunnel support,this can only be caused by the subframe.There is NO need to use a shortened remote. Malcolm,come over on Sunday and I will show you the difference. Hope this helps Steve @ S&S Preparations Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest pilbaratr7 Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Steve, How much space is gained using one of your modified subframes over the standard TR8 subframe? I am planning on fitting a 3.9efi, will this fit with a single bulge bonnet? Regards Glen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest stagman Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Kyle. If you have spacers fitted to lower your subframe then chances are its an original. No spacers, Standard Carb set up and no small dents in the bonnet usually mean its an S&M item. As someone said previous, the S&M frames wont take a Stag power steering rack because they are to low where an original has much higher engine mountings. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest trminator Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Many thanks for taking time out to do that Steve. Malcolm, if I send you some pics of my subframe will you host them for me so we can let Steve (and the other forum visitors) see them? -Kyle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Sure, no problem Kyle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 V8 subframes from the S&S stand at Stoneleigh today. These images are quite high res and may take a while to load, but this does mean you can see them in detail. The blacker one is an S&S lowered one and the other a standard Rimmers/TR8 replica. As you can see the S&S mounts the engine lower. What you can't see is the extra strenghening webbing within the S&S subframe. You can easily feel it though by poking your finger in! subframe1 subframe2 subframe3 Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 How much space is gained using one of your modified subframes over the standard TR8 subframe?I am planning on fitting a 3.9efi, will this fit with a single bulge bonnet? It depends on the manifold and carbs you are using Glen, but I've seen it done with the lowered subframe and single bulge bonnet on other conversions. Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest stagman Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Staying on the subframe subject, which side of the subframe should the engine mountings be bolted to? Front or Rear?. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest simonc Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 Hi Stagman The engine should be mounted on the Rearward face of the Subframe , As this gives better weight distribution and better clearance for the manifolds All the best Simon @S+S Preparations Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest trminator Posted February 9, 2004 Report Share Posted February 9, 2004 Many thanks Malcolm and Steve. It would appear that I have an S&S subframe - I have just been out in the garage with an inspection lamp to check. I could see a complete circular hole (who says you can't have half a hole) in the mount to allow access to a bolt so unless anyone else did a similar thing with their subframes then it is an S & S judging by the pics. Strangely though I have a dent on my bonnet where the oil filler cap struck when the bonnet was first closed after the conversion was carried out. The convertor then ground down the cap so it didn't happen again - this, bearing in mind the lower position of an S & S cradle that Steve referred to, leaves a seed of doubt in mind as to whether or not S & S really are the manufacturers of mine. -Kyle In caseit is pertinent, I have twin SUs and K&Ns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
andrewt Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 Kyle If you are using the SD1 style filler cap, on the little tower then this would explain why it hit. The tower can unscrew from the rocker cover then the cap fits back in the same threads, however from memory you need to trim the underside of the cap to stop it fouling one of the rockers. I am also interested as to whether or not the vitesse/range rover plenum will fit under a double bulge bonnet with an S&S subframe. Any knowledge out there? Mine currently sticks out of a single bulge bonnet by around 2" (I have cut a hole round the plenum until i find an appropriate bulge) I have a factory subframe fitted. (I think!) Cheers Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest stagman Posted February 10, 2004 Report Share Posted February 10, 2004 Andy. If you can get hold of one, a federal market plenum is lower than a UK spec one. I have used one of these on an EFI converted Stag. Alternatively, you can have yours machined for clearance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest simonc Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Andy The Range Rover / Rover Vitesse plenum will fit straight under a double bulge bonnet using an S+S subframe no problem , It gives the maximum clearance for all applications. All the best Simon @ S+S PREPARATIONS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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