123Ignition

[Menno van Rij]

Hello all,

 

My wife used the phrase from the last Batman movie in which Heath Ledger says: "Here-we-go...". She did the same after my queste on the internet for nice goodies and add-ons for my TR. She predicted this when she went off to work this morning. I was at home with one of my kids, the two of us with the flu, and too much time on my hands ...and I found 123ignition.

 

I'm more or less baffled by the rev.counter issue: some say that a TR3A rev. counter will work with 123ignition, others say that it won't fit and that you'll have to convert the rev. counter to an electronic one.

 

So, here's the (obvious) question: what are your experiences? With or without the original rev. counter? Can it be plumbed in, retaining the original rev.counter set up? At this point I want to step back from the question 'Does a TR3A need a 123ignition device?'

 

As always, your opinion is very important to me!

 

Menno

 

Edited March 16, 2009 by Menno van Rij

[Don Elliott]

I don't understand what the issue is. Have you been taking too much cognac for the flu ?

 

The rev counter (tachometer) on my 1958 TR3A is all mechanical. On every TR that I've seen, it is all mechanical. The tach cable is driven from a small gear under the distributor, throught the firewall and right into the mechanical tachometer on the dash board.

 

Better have some more cognac.

[Menno van Rij]

I don't understand what the issue is. Have you been taking too much cognac for the flu ?

 

The rev counter (tachometer) on my 1958 TR3A is all mechanical. On every TR that I've seen, it is all mechanical. The tach cable is driven from a small gear under the distributor, throught the firewall and right into the mechanical tachometer on the dash board.

 

Better have some more cognac.

 

Well, let me try to explain: some people on the 'net are telling a story about the lack of compatibiliy between the 123iginition and the connection to the mechanical rev counter. I.e. the buyer has to convert his mechanical rev counter to an electronic one. While others are telling an other story: the 123ignition is a straight fit to the 3A and all components.

 

Although the 123ignition company is Dutch, it's impossible to contact them by phone: it's this new type of company that's totally web based: all contacts by email.

 

And that brings me to my question: any experiences here with 123ign. on a side screen TR?

 

Menno

[uvc166]

Hi Menno, the tacho is not affected (as Don says) by the 123 distributor, however after having one fitted for over 12 months on every setting possible and getting nowhere , not being able to stop it pinking at 3k revs , have now gone back to Aldon distributor with electriconics and engine is spot on. 123 website is next to useless (no positive answers) ,IMHO dont bother. I think Badfrog uses one maybe he can be more positive , Cheers Paul.

[Menno van Rij]

Hi Menno, the tacho is not affected (as Don says) by the 123 distributor, however after having one fitted for over 12 months on every setting possible and getting nowhere , not being able to stop it pinking at 3k revs , have now gone back to Aldon distributor with electriconics and engine is spot on. 123 website is next to useless (no positive answers) ,IMHO dont bother. I think Badfrog uses one maybe he can be more positive , Cheers Paul.

 

Thanks for your input. Have you seen this: a rev-o-rama build on the 123 fact sheet.

[uvc166]

Hi Menno, Yes tried that as well, also posted on 123 website forun and only got replies from people having problems (mainly MG) . The only reason I bought one ,because Luminition packed in . Back to normal now with Aldon , Cheers Paul.

[Ian Vincent]

Well, let me try to explain: some people on the 'net are telling a story about the lack of compatibiliy between the 123iginition and the connection to the mechanical rev counter. I.e. the buyer has to convert his mechanical rev counter to an electronic one. While others are telling an other story: the 123ignition is a straight fit to the 3A and all components.

 

Although the 123ignition company is Dutch, it's impossible to contact them by phone: it's this new type of company that's totally web based: all contacts by email.

 

And that brings me to my question: any experiences here with 123ign. on a side screen TR?

 

Menno

Hi Menno,

 

The attached is a copy of an article on a 123 distributor from the May 2007 edition of Traction. It is very positive but on the other hand I am sure that somewhere else I have seen a set of power and torque curves for an electronic igition on a TR and from memory it didn't show any improvement over a well set up original distributor.

 

If you do go ahead and fit one, it would be interesting to see if it does offer any tangible performance (or economy) improvement over the standard distributor.

 

Rgds Ian

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Menno,

 

British Leyland were often criticised, and rightly so, for using their customers as guinea pigs - the old attitude of turning out a car and then leaving the customers and the dealers to find out and attempt to sort all the faults, instead of developing the damn car properly in the first place.

 

OK, so we all thought this was typical 1970s ?

 

Seems like the 123 ignition people have a similar attitude, you can't phone or email them, they have just a fax line for sales enquiries . . . . maybe it's a 21st Century retro thing ?

 

Quote from their website

 

"I have another question, how can I reach you?

Please ask your questions to one of our dealers, they can probably answer it. You can also visit us on one of the markets we visit and speak with us about your idea/questions. We want to spent our time designing good products, not answering a lot of e-mail. You can also post your question on the forum so that another user can answer it, do not expect an answer directly from us though."

 

I just love that last clause . . . . would I deal with these guys ? You cannot be serious. Come back BL, all is forgiven !!

 

The website seems pretty unequivocal about mechanical tachos though

 

"Triumph-owners should check if they need a connection for a mechanical rev.counter, as a 123\GB does not offer this."

 

There's a lot to be said for a properly rebuilt Lucas dissie from the Distributor Doctor - at least you can just pick up the phone and talk to Martin if you run into a problem, and the proper tacho will work !

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[JeffR]

Hi Menno,

 

British Leyland were often criticised, and rightly so, for using their customers as guinea pigs - the old attitude of turning out a car and then leaving the customers and the dealers to find out and attempt to sort all the faults, instead of developing the damn car properly in the first place.

 

OK, so we all thought this was typical 1970s ?

 

Seems like the 123 ignition people have a similar attitude, you can't phone or email them, they have just a fax line for sales enquiries . . . . maybe it's a 21st Century retro thing ?

 

Quote from their website

 

"I have another question, how can I reach you?

Please ask your questions to one of our dealers, they can probably answer it. You can also visit us on one of the markets we visit and speak with us about your idea/questions. We want to spent our time designing good products, not answering a lot of e-mail. You can also post your question on the forum so that another user can answer it, do not expect an answer directly from us though."

 

I just love that last clause . . . . would I deal with these guys ? You cannot be serious. Come back BL, all is forgiven !!

 

The website seems pretty unequivocal about mechanical tachos though

 

"Triumph-owners should check if they need a connection for a mechanical rev.counter, as a 123\GB does not offer this."

 

There's a lot to be said for a properly rebuilt Lucas dissie from the Distributor Doctor - at least you can just pick up the phone and talk to Martin if you run into a problem, and the proper tacho will work !

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[JeffR]

Interesting reading this discussion. - I feel I must state the case for the 123!!

 

Last year I fitted a 123 to my E- type. It previously had the US emisions distributor fitted with vacuum retard. Quite frankly the general running and pick up of the engine was awful!

 

At the time there was also a lot of discussion on the 123 Forum about the need to convert the tacho to electronic operation.

 

As it happens, I needed to have my tacho converted as the original equipment, whilst electronic, is an inductive system as I believe is that of MGs. This type is not compatible with the 123. Conversion wasn't a big deal - I sent mine to JDO who converted it and sent it back by return post within a day. Their service was excellent and the cost was very reasonable. It's nice to now have a very accurate tacho with a rock steady readout.

 

Regarding the 123, the fitting instructions are very clear, it took less than an hour to fit and has transformed the running of the car throughout the rev range and at all speeds including tickover which is very consistent, smooth and even.

 

Regarding the TR, I probably wouldn't fit one as in my view it is probably overkill in such a relatively straightforward engine, unless you're running it in a high state of tune. I've driven my TR4 for the past 35 years on its original distributor and have only had one failure due to a reproduction rotor arm - now replaced by the distributor doctor!

 

As far as the tacho on the TR is concerned, it doesn,t need to be converted as it is a mechanical unit, the pick up point from the engine being below the distriubutor rotor shaft.

 

JEFFR

[vivdownunder]

Whilst the 123 distributor might well improve a Jag engine, I recall Martin Jay, aka The Distributor Doctor, posting quite a while back that there was no ideal advance curve available in the calibration options for our 4 pot TR engines.

 

Within the Register here we have a very highly developed full race TR2 and a number of like TR3A's that all run standard Lucas dizzy's, with dyno readings proving this is perfectly adequate for the task. Fitting electronic ignition gave no extra power at race revs.

 

The key is to ensure the Lucas dizzy is in top condition, with good quality points, condensor, rotor button, cap and leads, and that the timing is set correctly. For a road car the vacuum advance needs to be working properly for good economy, including making sure there are no air leaks in the line, particularly at the fittings under the front carby.

 

There has been information recently to suggest a sports coil isn't helpful on a road car, as the increased output tends to burn the points out.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

[Badfrog]

Hello all,

 

So, here's the (obvious) question: what are your experiences? With or without the original rev. counter? Can it be plumbed in, retaining the original rev.counter set up? At this point I want to step back from the question 'Does a TR3A need a 123ignition device?'

Menno

 

Hi Menno,

 

It's a drag that many people on the net talk about things they have no precise knowledge about.

 

So, a few facts I have experimented MYSELF:

 

123-Ignition is useless on a normal TR engine. Stick to 25D4.

Mechanical tachos are not concerned as you are not supposed to change the dizzy pedestal piece. It's electronic tachos that don't work with magnetic (Hall effect) dizzys.

 

If you have a modifed camshaft, things are different:

 

The 123-IG becomes a real asset, best curve being between 5 and 7, by trial and error. It's a sturdy piece, not like the Lumenitions (I burned 2). Use the one without depression advance.

The Ignitor Pertronix magnetic device is very good too and goes in the original dizzy, no apparent change. IMHO, maybe the solution for you (ref LU-142 I believe).

 

Please post if you need more info.

 

Cheers,

 

Magneticfrog

Edited March 27, 2009 by Badfrog

[Jack Horner]

I have just canceled my order for 123 system. I have been waiting for 6 weeks. If you decide to get one, then walk in and pick one up from the counter. Good luck.

 

Regards Jack

[Guest ntc]

Hi Menno,

 

It's a drag that many people on the net talk about things they have no precise knowledge about.

 

So, a few facts I have experimented MYSELF:

 

123-Ignition is useless on a normal TR engine. Stick to 25D4.

Mechanical tachos are not concerned as you are not supposed to change the dizzy pedestal piece. It's electronic tachos that don't work with magnetic (Hall effect) dizzys.

 

If you have a modifed camshaft, things are different:

 

The 123-IG becomes a real asset, best curve being between 5 and 7, by trial and error. It's a sturdy piece, not like the Lumenitions (I burned 2). Use the one without depression advance.

The Ignitor Pertronix magnetic device is very good too and goes in the original dizzy, no apparent change. IMHO, maybe the solution for you (ref LU-142 I believe).

 

Please post if you need more info.

 

Cheers,

 

Magneticfrog

 

Badfrog

You must know about these 123 system's obviously, I tend to agree with Alec. They seem to have no after sales response in place full stop look here http://www.123ignition.nl/forum/

 

Neil

Edited March 27, 2009 by ntc

[Badfrog]

Badfrog

You must know about these 123 system's obviously, I tend to agree with Alec. They seem to have no after sales response in place full stop look here http://www.123ignition.nl/forum/

Neil

 

Neil,

 

A word to the wise: I always carry a spare 25D4 in the trunk because these can't let you down.

 

Concerning 123-IG: They have no "aftersale service" that I know of and their forum is a masterpiece of hot air.

I maintain this dizzy is a very good reliable piece which really improves perf when coupled to a hot cam, but it's no better than any other electronic gadget: if broken, dump. No repair unless your know a car electronics engineer.

 

BTW: My remark "It's a drag that many people on the net talk about things they have no precise knowledge about." referred to a huge number of websites where I hunt for mechanical info and certainly not to the TRR.

The best sites I know are this TRR forum and Kas Kastner's site. As moderator of the TCF forum, I try to keep a similar standard.

 

Badfrog

[Bob Brennan]

This just flew in over the MG T-ABC transom:

 

http://www.advanceddistributors.com/

 

Looks like it's worth bookmarking for future reference.