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Low Manifold Depression


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I am at present the not so proud owner of a 1971 TR6 PI. The car was sold new in the UK and shipped to New Zealand by its owner in 1974 where it has been ever since. I purchased the car in Feb 2002 and drove it for approx 5 months before taking it off the road for a body and interior restoration. The car was started for the first time since 2002 only a matter of weeks ago.

 

The previous owner (who I can no longer track down) provided me with an invoice for the reconditioning of the short block back in 1998. It had new +030 pistons & rings; 010 main & big end bearings; gudgeon bushes; thrust washers; oil pump kit; refaced cam followers. It is also possible that the camshaft was ground.

 

At the time of purchase the engine was running extremely rich as evidenced by the black smoke from the exhaust and the drain on the fuel tank and wallet. I took it to an automotive electrican who had been invloved in the racing of PI saloons back in the early 1970's. He concluded that it was indeed running rich and suggested that the fuel metering distributor (metering unit ) and injectors may well need overhaul. I was not in a position to embark on that at the time so he instead proceeded to wind out the depression chamber (the conical shaped part with the black cap covering it) a long way to the point where the black cap would no longer fit over the top.

 

The result was immediate and the car delivered a true 27+ mpg on a 150 mile trip. The engine performed in a manner that I expected in terms of power and driveability as I was able to refer to my 1973 PI saloon that has been in the family since new for comparative purposes

 

When I came to starting the car a few weeks ago for the first time in over 6 years, I decided to have the metering unit and injectors overhauled. I sent them to a fuel injection specialist who served his time with Lucas here in NZ and once owned a TR5. He has the genuine test rig with which to recalibrate the metering unit. He thus reset the unit to factory specs for the CP series engine running the original early TR6 camshaft, part number 307689 which is the 2 groove 150 bhp camshaft. I think it was setup on the assumption the engine will be pulling around 12.5" Mg at an idle speed of 800 to 850 rev/min. He found little wear in the metering unit however the injector seals were tired and were allowing fuel to drip past the injectors, so he initially thought this may be the seat of the problem.

 

I refitted and timed the unit to the engine. This was triple checked by me and a mechanic friend. We proceeded to fire the engine and lo and behold, it was running rich again as evidenced by roughness and a plume of black smoke out the exhaust pipe. This has lead to the following items being addressed:

 

usual tuning checks such as timing (11 degrees B.T.D.C), plug gaps (0.025 in), valve clearances (0.010 engine cold)

 

set throttle butterflies. Engine cuts out when the air valve adjusting screw on the end of the inlet plenum is screwed right in thus indicating the butterflies are correctly set

 

measured manifold depression at 800 rpm idle. The reading was 4" Hg

 

took compression readings on a warm engine with throttles wide open. Measured 200 psi on 5 cylinders and 210 psi on one

 

excess fuel lever checked and it is returning to the fully off position

 

both vacuum feeds (brake and metering unit) are not leaking

 

fitted a fuel pressure gauge into the main fuel line just before the metering unit. The reading with the ignition switched on but the engine not running is around 102 psi. It's slightly low but passable.

 

Unfortunately, none of this shed any light on the problem so we proceeded to try to measure the camshaft timing and get an indication of the cam profile. Due to the time consuming nature of this process, we decided to remove the head and extract the camshaft and have it profiled by an expert. He has today done this and confirmed that the camshaft is the original early TR6 camshaft, part number 307689 which is the 2 groove 150 bhp camshaft. The grind is exactly as it should be.

 

Prior to the removal of the head and cam, we checked for true TDC by using a piston stop down No 1 spark plug hole with No 1 firing. The marker on the pulley is virtually dead on (maybe 1 degree out) so this confirms that the harmonic balancer has not deteriorated and allowed the outer section to spin on the inner section that is set on the crankshaft keyway.

 

We also checked that valves 11 & 12 were on the rock, and they were. The timing chain does appear to be stretched as the deflection is 15mm. I understand anything over 10mm is unacceptable so it will be replaced. The cam and crank sprockets have been deemed to be in good and acceptable condition.

 

The head and rocker gear are now with a local engine rebuilder and he has confimed that the valve guides had a little wear in them but nothing to be concerned about.

 

So, the big question is this: How can there be a lack of vacuum when the compressions are so high? It seems to follow that due to the lack of vacuum, the metering unit is not going into its lean state and is thus delivering too much fuel. Where is my vacuum????? I hope somebody can help as I and others have run out of possibilities.

 

Thanks in anticipation

 

Mark

Taupo, New Zealand.

Edited by Kiwi Mark
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I am at present the not so proud owner of a 1971 TR6 PI. The car was sold new in the UK and shipped to New Zealand by its owner in 1974 where it has been ever since. I purchased the car in Feb 2002 and drove it for approx 5 months before taking it off the road for a body and interior restoration. The car was started for the first time since 2002 only a matter of weeks ago.

 

The previous owner (who I can no longer track down) provided me with an invoice for the reconditioning of the short block back in 1998. It had new +030 pistons & rings; 010 main & big end bearings; gudgeon bushes; thrust washers; oil pump kit; refaced cam followers. It is also possible that the camshaft was ground.

 

At the time of purchase the engine was running extremely rich as evidenced by the black smoke from the exhaust and the drain on the fuel tank and wallet. I took it to an automotive electrican who had been invloved in the racing of PI saloons back in the early 1970's. He concluded that it was indeed running rich and suggested that the fuel metering distributor (metering unit ) and injectors may well need overhaul. I was not in a position to embark on that at the time so he instead proceeded to wind out the depression chamber (the conical shaped part with the black cap covering it) a long way to the point where the black cap would no longer fit over the top.

 

The result was immediate and the car delivered a true 27+ mpg on a 150 mile trip. The engine performed in a manner that I expected in terms of power and driveability as I was able to refer to my 1973 PI saloon that has been in the family since new for comparative purposes

 

When I came to starting the car a few weeks ago for the first time in over 6 years, I decided to have the metering unit and injectors overhauled. I sent them to a fuel injection specialist who served his time with Lucas here in NZ and once owned a TR5. He has the genuine test rig with which to recalibrate the metering unit. He thus reset the unit to factory specs for the CP series engine running the original early TR6 camshaft, part number 307689 which is the 2 groove 150 bhp camshaft. I think it was setup on the assumption the engine will be pulling around 12.5" Mg at an idle speed of 800 to 850 rev/min. He found little wear in the metering unit however the injector seals were tired and were allowing fuel to drip past the injectors, so he initially thought this may be the seat of the problem.

 

I refitted and timed the unit to the engine. This was triple checked by me and a mechanic friend. We proceeded to fire the engine and lo and behold, it was running rich again as evidenced by roughness and a plume of black smoke out the exhaust pipe. This has lead to the following items being addressed:

 

usual tuning checks such as timing (11 degrees B.T.D.C), plug gaps (0.025 in), valve clearances (0.010 engine cold)

 

set throttle butterflies. Engine cuts out when the air valve adjusting screw on the end of the inlet plenum is screwed right in thus indicating the butterflies are correctly set

 

measured manifold depression at 800 rpm idle. The reading was 4" Hg

 

took compression readings on a warm engine with throttles wide open. Measured 200 psi on 5 cylinders and 210 psi on one

 

excess fuel lever checked and it is returning to the fully off position

 

both vacuum feeds (brake and metering unit) are not leaking

 

fitted a fuel pressure gauge into the main fuel line just before the metering unit. The reading with the ignition switched on but the engine not running is around 102 psi. It's slightly low but passable.

 

Unfortunately, none of this shed any light on the problem so we proceeded to try to measure the camshaft timing and get an indication of the cam profile. Due to the time consuming nature of this process, we decided to remove the head and extract the camshaft and have it profiled by an expert. He has today done this and confirmed that the camshaft is the original early TR6 camshaft, part number 307689 which is the 2 groove 150 bhp camshaft. The grind is exactly as it should be.

 

Prior to the removal of the head and cam, we checked for true TDC by using a piston stop down No 1 spark plug hole with No 1 firing. The marker on the pulley is virtually dead on (maybe 1 degree out) so this confirms that the harmonic balancer has not deteriorated and allowed the outer section to spin on the inner section that is set on the crankshaft keyway.

 

We also checked that valves 11 & 12 were on the rock, and they were. The timing chain does appear to be stretched as the deflection is 15mm. I understand anything over 10mm is unacceptable so it will be replaced. The cam and crank sprockets have been deemed to be in good and acceptable condition.

 

The head and rocker gear are now with a local engine rebuiler and he has confimed that the valve guides had a little wear in them but nothing to be concerned about.

 

So, the big question is this: How can there be a lack of vacuum when the compressions are so high? It seems to follow that due to the lack of vacuum, the metering unit is not going into its lean state and is thus delivering too much fuel. Where is my vacuum????? I hope somebody can help as I and others have run out of possibilities.

 

Thanks in anticipation

 

Mark

Taupo, New Zealand.

 

Hi Mark.

 

It seem like you have checked everything.

Is it possible you have a vakuum leakage problem on the brake servo ?

 

Oystein

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Thanks for the thought Oystein, but have checked that by simply blocking the outlet to the brake servo and thus directing all vacuum to the metering unit. The manifold depression still remained at 4" Hg.

 

There are not many leaking possibilities when the butterflies are closed on the

inlet manifoil.

Do the butterflyes close correctly , correctly adjusted ?

Are the butterfly shafts worn ?

Is it easy to adjust the idle down to a low RPM ?

Can you have a gasket leakage between the inlet manifoil and cylinder head ?

 

Oystein

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You do seem to have covered all the angles! If everything externally checks out, poor Hg is usually a sign of an internal engine problem or general wear & after a 6 year lay up, I would suspect a good chance of the piston rings being stuck but the compression test seems to indicate all is OK; have you tried re-testing using another gauge? The fact you can stall the engine with the bleed screw would indicate the throttles are pretty air tight so that would also seem to be OK. Did you measure the depression at the manifold or at the end of the M/U tube? Have you tried replacing the M/U tube; they may look OK on the outside but collapse internally with age. I would also have suggested looking at the cam profile & timing but you’ve covered that & it’s a standard CP cam!

 

When I get a problem that seemingly defies logic I start to suspect things that are outside my control, recon units & test gauges; it’s easy to get lulled into a false security by assuming that if it’s new or refurbished it must be OK or to blindly trust a test gauge reading! Are you sure the M/U is OK & has been properly set up? Even new/recon units can be suspect, I’ve had two in the time I’ve owned my car & both times it took ages before I satisfied myself that it had to be the cause; both were returned to the supplier & did indeed prove to have faults! Whatever is causing the problem, it’s bound to be something stupid!

 

The only other thing I can suggest is to take the car to a rolling road (assuming you can access one) & try setting it up on that.

 

I'll keep thnking about it & see if I can come up with anything else. ;)

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There are not many leaking possibilities when the butterflies are closed on the

inlet manifoil.

Do the butterflyes close correctly , correctly adjusted ?

Are the butterfly shafts worn ?

Is it easy to adjust the idle down to a low RPM ?

Can you have a gasket leakage between the inlet manifoil and cylinder head ?

 

Oystein

Yes, the butterflies are correctly adjusted. As I stated, I can wind the bleed screw in and the engine stalls. Not sure about the butterfly shafts - I'll get them checked out. Yes, it is easy to adjust the idle down to low RPM. I sprayed CRC around the inlet manifolds and the head but there was no evidence of leakage as the engine tone did not change. Having now taken the head off, I will be fitting a new gasket set throughout so that will hopefully rule leaking gaskets out for sure.

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Being a CP engine, your vacuum readig should be 7-8 ins of Hg. Yours is still low, but not as bad as you initially thought.

All the best with fault detection.

yours

Paul

That's an interesting point Paul as there are actually two conflicting figures given in the same Repair Operation Manual!!! The Repair Opertion Manual, Part Number AKM3646, states on Page 05-1 under Engine Tuning Data that the manifoild depression at idling speed should be 12.5 in Hg. Then, on Page 12-38 under Manifold Depression PI, the stated figure is 7 to 8 in Mg at 800 rev/min.

 

So, the question here is, what is the correct figure? A friend has a stock standard TR5 which is concours standard in every way, and his engine measures 11 in Mg at idle, so it would seem that the higher figure is approachable.

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You do seem to have covered all the angles! If everything externally checks out, poor Hg is usually a sign of an internal engine problem or general wear & after a 6 year lay up, I would suspect a good chance of the piston rings being stuck but the compression test seems to indicate all is OK; have you tried re-testing using another gauge? The fact you can stall the engine with the bleed screw would indicate the throttles are pretty air tight so that would also seem to be OK. Did you measure the depression at the manifold or at the end of the M/U tube? Have you tried replacing the M/U tube; they may look OK on the outside but collapse internally with age. I would also have suggested looking at the cam profile & timing but you’ve covered that & it’s a standard CP cam!

 

When I get a problem that seemingly defies logic I start to suspect things that are outside my control, recon units & test gauges; it’s easy to get lulled into a false security by assuming that if it’s new or refurbished it must be OK or to blindly trust a test gauge reading! Are you sure the M/U is OK & has been properly set up? Even new/recon units can be suspect, I’ve had two in the time I’ve owned my car & both times it took ages before I satisfied myself that it had to be the cause; both were returned to the supplier & did indeed prove to have faults! Whatever is causing the problem, it’s bound to be something stupid!

 

The only other thing I can suggest is to take the car to a rolling road (assuming you can access one) & try setting it up on that.

 

I'll keep thnking about it & see if I can come up with anything else. ;)

You raise a couple of interesting points Richard. I too thought the piston rings might be seized however I did pour oil and CRC down the bores several weeks before firing it up. I also hand turned it a good number of times. As you rightly say, the compressions pretty much rule that out.

 

I have not tried testing with another gauge. I will do so once the engine is re-assembled however regardless of the actual reading, the symptoms of low manifold depression are evident through the overfuelling and black exhaust fumes.

 

The measurement was taken at the brake booster end of the brake booster hose as I didn't have a "T" fitting to add into the MU hose. I note your comments about the possible deterioration of the hoses and will go ahead and replace both of them.

 

I can't be 100% sure the MU is ok and correctly set up. All I can say is that the bloke who did the job is very experienced and has done many units in the past with the correct calibration equipment. Having said that, he did suggest I take the MU off my PI saloon and fit it to the TR6 and see what happens. I did not want to disturb a perfectly functioning unit however I am now at the point where I will do so once the engine is reassembled.

 

What were the exact faults you encountered with your two metering units?

 

I note your rolling road idea however I could probably have dealt to the symptoms of the problem by simply winding out the depression chamber on the MU like was done previously. This would result in the black cap having to be left off but the engine would probably run as well as it did when that action was taken over 6 years ago. I don't want to do that as it is not dealing with the cause of the problem.

 

Another point to note that I omitted to mention is this. The receipt record from the previous owner shows that within 2 weeks of the short block having been done, he took it to a well respected garage who I have also used many times, and they did the following:

 

Check Tuning -Running rich. Check & adjust rear intake butterfly. Balance others. Check injectors & bleed No4 & refit. Check distributor. Clean and set points. Remove and replace spark plugs with platinum set. Check and adjust tappets. Refit rocker cover. Fit new fibre washers under nuts. Road test and set timing.

 

This was interesting as it appears he was experiencing the overfuelling problem back then, immediately after the short block work was completed. He drove the car around 8,000 miles and as I stated, when I took delivery, it was running very rich. Is there anything in the short block reconditioning that could explain the running rich?

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I have not tried testing with another gauge. I will do so once the engine is re-assembled however regardless of the actual reading, the symptoms of low manifold depression are evident through the overfuelling and black exhaust fumes.

 

The measurement was taken at the brake booster end of the brake booster hose as I didn't have a "T" fitting to add into the MU hose. I note your comments about the possible deterioration of the hoses and will go ahead and replace both of them.

 

I can't be 100% sure the MU is ok and correctly set up. All I can say is that the bloke who did the job is very experienced and has done many units in the past with the correct calibration equipment.

 

Having said that, he did suggest I take the MU off my PI saloon and fit it to the TR6 and see what happens. I did not want to disturb a perfectly functioning unit however I am now at the point where I will do so once the engine is reassembled.

 

Another point to note that I omitted to mention is this. The receipt record from the previous owner shows that within 2 weeks of the short block having been done, he took it to a well respected garage who I have also used many times, and they did the following:

 

Check Tuning -Running rich. Check & adjust rear intake butterfly. Balance others. Check injectors & bleed No4 & refit. Check distributor. Clean and set points. Remove and replace spark plugs with platinum set. Check and adjust tappets. Refit rocker cover. Fit new fibre washers under nuts. Road test and set timing.

 

This was interesting as it appears he was experiencing the overfuelling problem back then, immediately after the short block work was completed. He drove the car around 8,000 miles and as I stated, when I took delivery, it was running very rich. Is there anything in the short block reconditioning that could explain the running rich?

The vacuum is an obverse function of the cylinder compression, and with the good compressions which you have, and a standard cam with standard cam timing, you should have good inlet vacuum. Given that you can stall the engine, I think that pretty much also rules out any major leak in the manifold gasket?

 

My CR engine, with unknown lumpy cam, gives 7" at idle, but does not run at all rich, as the m/u was set up specifically for the car.

 

From which throttle body does the m/u take its vacuum?

Try swapping the takeoff into the other two bodies, see it it's the same.... clutching at straws here...

Also, the m/u vac hose might be a loose fit at either end? but you're going to renew it anyway...

 

Did your chap set up the blow-off pressures on the injectors? Presumably so, I mention this purely because they would overfuel to some extent if the blow-off pressure is low.

 

Presumably the m/u was on the car before the engine overhaul, so that would be a common and continuing factor. For the relatively modest cost, and with all due respect to your existing chap, I would swap the m/u for a recon from another supplier. However, before making a decision, and if you can stand the phone bill, a conversation with Malcolm at Prestige would be worthwhile. His experience of TRs goes beyond the injection alone, as he has in the past carried out full restos.

+44 (0)1978 263449

 

No, I don't think that anything else in your short-block rebuild would be relevant, you've covered it all with amazing thoroughness.

 

Ivor

Edited by 88V8
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Have you tried just the vacuum at the manifold without the MU or the servo?

It could be the diaphram in the top of the MU.

I have a vacuum hand pump with a gauge that i connect direct onto the top of the meter unit, it should hold its vaccum, as should the servo, useful tool. Its called a MityVac.

Regards John

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Have you tried just the vacuum at the manifold without the MU or the servo?

It could be the diaphram in the top of the MU.

I have a vacuum hand pump with a gauge that i connect direct onto the top of the meter unit, it should hold its vaccum, as should the servo, useful tool. Its called a MityVac.

Regards John

No I haven't John however the MU has just been fully overhauled and the diagphram was fine. Will try your hand pump vacuum gauge all the same. Thanks for the tip.

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I've received an email from a chap here in NZ who is pretty good on TR's. He says:

 

You're on the right track, did you disconnect the power brake unit whilst conducting these tests ? as it may be faulty and letting air into the system. Other than that it will still come back to piston rings to bore.

 

I replied:

 

Yes, I took the reading from the booster end of the booster hose. How could the rings be suspect when the compressions are so high?

 

He replied:

 

It's just a fact, ask any engine reconditioner worth his salt. Any petrol injected Triumph only ever achieves like 20hg after its been reconditioned and after having done about 1000 miles on running in oil. The MU reconditioners can only follow the Lucas book settings when setting up a metering unit and have to assume the engine can pull the factory settings for vacuum. Once your engine started blowing black smoke the engines ability to pull a reasonable vacuum was stuffed due to the petrol wash on the cylinder walls and once that happens the problem is all downhill as the metering unit defaults to over rich due to less and less vacuum and the unit cannot get back into the lean zone. With my vacuum bench I always set the metering unit to match the engines known vacuum performance, e.g. 12 or 15 maybe 10 hg.

Whilst not absolutely perfect it generally worked, the final settings needing to be done on a rolling road.

It is possible to set the datum track outside of the factory vacuum settings especially if you know the points to plot.

These methods were used in markets where the Lucas test bench facilities were not available.

At 4hg it would appear to be engine out and attend to bores and rings.

 

Any thoughts on this anyone?

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According to my conversion factors, 1in Hg is equivalent to 33.86mB. In the internationl standard atmosphere, the pressure at mean sea level is 1013mB at +15°C.

 

So, if 1mB corresponds to 27 ft, then 1in Hg would be equivalent to 891 ft. Temperature would also reduce by 2°C per thousand ft.

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Well, here is my 2 cents worth. First off, a cylinder leak down test would have been far more benefical than a compression test for this problem. Also, in your case I would have attempted to match the MU to the engine, rather than the engine to the MU, since it ran good yrs. ago. I would suggest you call Malcom at Prestige. I don't know about NZ, however this can be done, the call I mean, at little expense, if you buy a calling card. I would suggest this, as Malcom loves to talk, you may need 2 cards.

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Well, here is my 2 cents worth. First off, a cylinder leak down test would have been far more benefical than a compression test for this problem. Also, in your case I would have attempted to match the MU to the engine, rather than the engine to the MU, since it ran good yrs. ago. I would suggest you call Malcom at Prestige. I don't know about NZ, however this can be done, the call I mean, at little expense, if you buy a calling card. I would suggest this, as Malcom loves to talk, you may need 2 cards.

The leak down test idea makes sense however it's too late for that at this stage. I will happily call Malcolm at Prestige. No worries about toll rates, only 8 cents per minute.

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Kiwi Mark,

In response to your query about correct MU vacuum figures, the Lucas PI Handbook (aka the Red Book), and associated fault cards all quote 7-8 ins of Hg for the early (150 bhp) engines and 11-12 ins of Hg for the detuned 2.5 PI saloon/estate engines. Currently unable to locate source for the detuned CR (125 bhp) engines, but it is lurking somewhere in my archives. I believe the CR cars inhereited the milder saloon camshaft and hence the same vacuum reading since I think the vacuum reading is a direct function of the camshaft fitted. Others more knowledgable than me will be able to give chapter and verse.

Yours

Paul

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Kiwi Mark,

In response to your query about correct MU vacuum figures, the Lucas PI Handbook (aka the Red Book), and associated fault cards all quote 7-8 ins of Hg for the early (150 bhp) engines and 11-12 ins of Hg for the detuned 2.5 PI saloon/estate engines. Currently unable to locate source for the detuned CR (125 bhp) engines, but it is lurking somewhere in my archives. I believe the CR cars inhereited the milder saloon camshaft and hence the same vacuum reading since I think the vacuum reading is a direct function of the camshaft fitted. Others more knowledgable than me will be able to give chapter and verse.

Yours

Paul

Thanks for the clarification. I've just taken a look at the Lucas Service Training Centre red covered book and it does state 7" for TR5/6. I'm still 2" to 3" short of that which is obviously causing the MU to run in a rich state. I actually took the black side cover off the MU and lifted what I undersatand to be the control links with my finger. This leaned the mixture and if I pushed it up too far, the engine stalled. This tells me there is definately insufficient vacuum to pull the MU upto it's lean state.

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No Mike, definately B.T.D.C according to the Repair Operations Manual.

Sorry Mark, you are correct. .......... it's 4 degrees after for strobe timing. Have you tried strobing to see if you are getting disi advance?? .... I can understand it not being the root cause of your problem, but you may have multiple issues which are giving you this engine condition.

Regards Mike. :(

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