Stuck Engine - Need Help!!!

[angelfj]

First of all, please excuse the long post. I know there is an answer out there, so I tried to be as descriptive as possible.

 

We have encountered a strange situation with the engine in my project 3A. We began the restoration of this car, TS58476LO in November 2001. During the summer of 2002, the original engine, TS58681E was completely rebuilt. Just in case questions arise as you read about my dilemma , as finished at that point in 2002, the engine included everything but intake and exhaust manifolds, distributor, valve gear, and fuel pump. The block and cylinder head, sump and timing chain were painted with epoxy high-gloss paint. All openings were sealed and the entire engine was bagged in plastic with lots of desiccant. It has been in dry storage for almost six years with the original assembly lubricant and sump completely filled with 30W oil since then. To my knowledge, up until last week the engine was never "turned over" manually or by starter since the rebuild.

 

Fast forward to last week, the current state of the restoration is a completely restored body shell mounted on the completed rolling chassis, including front and rear suspension, engine, clutch, O/D transmission, prop shaft, differential, brakes, fuel and brake lines, wheels, tires, etc. The "engine" now includes intake and exhaust manifolds but no distributor, fuel pump, carburetors or valve gear.

 

 

 

Last week the refurbished starter was installed and the engine was cranked very briefly – mainly to test the starter, and the engine did rotate several times. We stopped only because the battery was flat so we put it on charge overnight. The following morning I added the valve gear and was preparing to adjust the valves. The plan was to rotate the engine through the transmission by using a large socket and breaker bar and to rotate the nut on the transmission output flange, with the transmission engaged in 4^th gear. Before proceeding, I lubricated the engine by using a long extension and a cordless drill to spin the oil pump through the hole in the distributor pedestal. After a few seconds we had good oil pressure and the top of the cylinder head was flooded. We knew that the oil gallery was full and that the mains oil ways and bearings had lubrication. Attaching the socket and breaker bar to the transmission output flange nut we tried to rotate the engine. We were only able to turn the engine (verified by watching the crankshaft pulley) about 30 degrees before encountering a large resistance. When we tried to increase the force applied, all we accomplished was to slip the O/D brake. At first we thought there was a problem with the starter/ring gear. Removal of the starter revealed nothing obvious. No obstructions could be seen. With the starter removed we tried again to rotate the engine with no luck – got the same resistance at exactly the same point in rotation. We then suspected a problem in the transmission. We rigged up a manual lever since the clutch slave/master cylinders are not yet connected and we wanted to avoid removing the transmission if possible. With this lever attached to the clutch cross-shaft arm we were able to operate the clutch and effectively disconnect the transmission from the engine. With the clutch disengaged we were able to select all 4 forward gears and reverse and rotate the output flange. There was no obvious binding or unusual noise from the transmission or O/D. We believe that this exercise has eliminated the transmission as the cause of resistance.

 

 

 

We returned our focus to the engine. We had a theory that after the successful rotation (with starter) last week that most of the assembly oil had been scraped off of the cylinder walls, thus possibly causing the unusual resistance. We also felt that we needed a better method of applying more torque to the crankshaft than what could be transferred through the transmission/OD. One concern we had was where best to apply torque to the crankshaft. We were concerned about using the fan hub extension for fear of shearing the woodruff keys. We decided to use an old 4-jaw lathe chuck and grasp the front of the crankshaft bolt. We applied penetrating oil to each cylinder through the spark plug hole and left the engine overnight.

 

 

 

In the morning (yesterday) we applied torque to the front of the engine (crankshaft bolt / 4-jaw chuck) – no luck – at least we did not feel comfortable applying more force through a longer lever-arm.

 

What to do next? We decided to drop the oil pan and possibly remove the timing chain cover. This was to be done today and I am waiting for a call from the shop with a report of what they found.

 

 

 

This has me very frustrated. How/why did the engine turn over last week with the starter and now we seem to be stuck? Let's face it. This is a 4 cylinder, wet liner tractor engine. How more basic can you get?

 

 

 

If you have encountered such a problem and/or have any suggestions please let me know.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Frank

[Bald Rick]

Frank

 

You say you turned the engine over ok then you added the valve gear. Have you tried taking the valve gear off and then trying to rotate the engine?

 

Just a thought.

 

Good luck

 

Tony

[angelfj]

Frank

 

You say you turned the engine over ok then you added the valve gear. Have you tried taking the valve gear off and then trying to rotate the engine?

 

Just a thought.

 

Good luck

 

Tony

 

Tony: last week the mechanic was able to turn over the engine, sans valve gear, on the electric starter. I then proceeded (a few days later) to add the valve gear and adjust the valves. This is when we encountered the resistance. After this experience the very first thing we did was to remove the valve gear and try again and the result was exactly the same. If you are asking if I tried to turn the engine before adding the valve gear, the answer is NO.

 

Thanks

[88V8]

If it turned OK on the starter, at that time it was OK. If not, the starter would not have turned it.

 

So the timing chain was in place, all you added was the rocker gear....

I don't understand why the decision that the engine would then be turned via the transmission to set the valve clearances. Why not in the usual way with the starting handle or with a socket on the crank nut?

 

If the valve springs were badly coil-bound I suppose it might stop the engine turning but I'm sure that was checked during the build, and the problem is still there without the rockers.... errmm

 

The rockers were on before you flooded the head with oil?

Now, are the spark plugs in or out?

It sounds almost like a hydraulic lock, but I don't understand how that would happen.

 

I guess you have to remove the timing chain and check that the crank assy rotates, then check that the camshaft & the oil pump rotate OK.

Very odd.

 

Ivor

[Rhodri]

If you weren't there then I wonder if the mechanic did turn the engine over, or not? If he really did turn it then forget the following- if not then check that one of the con rods has not been put in round the wrong way, that will cause exactly the symptoms you have.

 

Perhaps it is worth having the sump off later to have a look for anything obvious if all else fails?

 

Rod

[TR 2100]

A strange problem indeed. A bit more information may help.

 

When you say you encounter resistance, I assume you mean turning the

engine forward. What happens if you try to turn it back - do you still get

resistance?

In other words, does there seem to be a block against further forward

movement or resistance against any movement?

 

As a means of elimination, and as it's easy enough to do, suggest you remove

the rocker gear and try to turn the engine. I can't suggest any reason why that

would make much difference but it seems worth trying to see what happens.

 

Take care, though. With a new battery, the starter may well have turned the engine

against very stiff resistance without you being aware of the resistance. That would

not have done the engine any good so suggest you try again on the starter for

a brief period only.

 

Suggest you slacken off the distributor pedestal. I seem to remember that if you

have the gear in place without the correct clearance, that can cause resistance.

 

AlanR

[angelfj]

A strange problem indeed. A bit more information may help.

 

When you say you encounter resistance, I assume you mean turning the

engine forward. What happens if you try to turn it back - do you still get

resistance?

In other words, does there seem to be a block against further forward

movement or resistance against any movement?

 

 

 

As a means of elimination, and as it's easy enough to do, suggest you remove

the rocker gear and try to turn the engine. I can't suggest any reason why that

would make much difference but it seems worth trying to see what happens.

 

Take care, though. With a new battery, the starter may well have turned the engine

against very stiff resistance without you being aware of the resistance. That would

not have done the engine any good so suggest you try again on the starter for

a brief period only.

 

Suggest you slacken off the distributor pedestal. I seem to remember that if you

have the gear in place without the correct clearance, that can cause resistance.

 

AlanR

 

Alan: Allow me to clarify?

 

• As soon as the resistance was noticed we removed the rocker gear and that bit has been off since.

• We did try the starter with and without the rocker gear and stalled the motor with a fresh battery and charger/booster unit.

• Neither the distributor nor fuel pump are attached at this time - in other words, nothing is being driven off of the camshaft.

• The resistance that we notice is not abrupt. It is more like a build up followed by a solid stop. We can rotate clockwise perhaps one-eigth turn then build-up in resistance. At that point we can reverse direction and rotate anti-clockwise the same distance.

 

 

I hope this sheds light on the problem I really appreciate your insight. Thanks

[Tr4Tony]

Frank; two things;

 

1. Have you got water in the engine and is it 'hydraulicking' ? im assuming not, but do confirm.

 

2. There is a possibility that the crank bearings are binding, too tight assembly (?) or a rod bolt catching ....... if its this you should be able to see from underneath

 

3. Cracked liner, stopping a piston moving up and down, so locking the engine up ....

 

Ive seen all of this on relatively fresh engines which havent been used much, so i wonder if this is whats happened to you ?

 

Regards

 

Tony

[TR 2100]

Alan: Allow me to clarify?

 

• As soon as the resistance was noticed we removed the rocker gear and that bit has been off since.

• We did try the starter with and without the rocker gear and stalled the motor with a fresh battery and charger/booster unit.

• Neither the distributor nor fuel pump are attached at this time - in other words, nothing is being driven off of the camshaft.

• The resistance that we notice is not abrupt. It is more like a build up followed by a solid stop. We can rotate clockwise perhaps one-eigth turn then build-up in resistance. At that point we can reverse direction and rotate anti-clockwise the same distance.

 

 

I hope this sheds light on the problem I really appreciate your insight. Thanks

 

Shedding some light, yes, but no flashes of inspiration yet.

It's a strange one, as I said, but more information does helps eliminate

possibilities.

 

When I mentioned the distributor, I was referring to the pedestal only

although lack of clearance on the distributor drive would cause uniform

resistance and that's not what you have.

 

Build up followed by a solid stop.

Let's see what a feet-up, drink and fag do while I think about what could

lead to the sort of resistance you have.

 

Do you have the plugs removed (to eliminate compression as a factor?)

Do you have the gearbox in neutral? (Not that I can think of anything in

the clutch/gearbox that would cause the problem, just more elimination

of possible factors)

 

AlanR

Edited October 2, 2008 by TR 2100

[angelfj]

Shedding some light, yes, but no flashes of inspiration yet.

It's a strange one, as I said, but more information does helps eliminate

possibilities.

 

When I mentioned the distributor, I was referring to the pedestal only

although lack of clearance on the distributor drive would cause uniform

resistance and that's not what you have.

 

Build up followed by a solid stop.

Let's see what a feet-up, drink and fag do while I think about what could

lead to the sort of resistance you have.

 

AlanR

 

Alan: The distributor drive is not installed. In fact there is nothing currently being driven off the camshaft.

 

"Let's see what a feet-up, drink and fag do while I think about what could

lead to the sort of resistance you have."

You must indulge my curiosity. Where are you putting your feet up , sipping a drink and smoking a fag? it sounds like a good life.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2008 by angelfj

[vivdownunder]

Hi Frank,

 

It isn't as simple as something jamming between the ring gear and the bottom of the clutch housing by any chance ?.

 

With the front cover plate off the clutch housing, you should be able to fish around with a piece of wire to see if there is clearance right around the bottom of the ring gear.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

[TR 2100]

Alan: The distributor drive is not installed. In fact there is nothing currently being driven off the camshaft.

 

"Let's see what a feet-up, drink and fag do while I think about what could

lead to the sort of resistance you have."

You must indulge my curiosity. Where are you putting your feet up , sipping a drink and smoking a fag? it sounds like a good life.

 

 

 

 

 

Ho Chi Minh City, Saigon that was, for my sins.

 

AlanR

[TR 2100]

Do you have the plugs removed (to eliminate compression as a factor?)

Do you have the gearbox in neutral? (Not that I can think of anything in

the clutch/gearbox that would cause the problem, just more elimination

of possible factors)

 

Please confirm.

 

Also, do you think the problem has got worse, in that the starter now

doesn't seem able to turn the engine, or is it just that the power of the

starter overcame the resistance before and you weren't aware of it?

 

AlanR

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Frank,

 

hndsight is always wonderful . . . . but if you rebuild an engine you really don't want to leave it lying around unused for 6 weeks, let alone 6 months or 6 years. After 6 years, I'd want to strip and reassemble a new-build engine anyway. And it's preferable to test and set up the engine on the bench, without transmission attached, rather than in the car.

 

Of the suggestions thus far, removing plugs will eliminate hydraulic lock. Remove timing chain and you can check camshaft. Ring gear blockage is possible, also worth checking. Thereafter it's surely either a crank or a piston problem. One possibility is a broken piston ring, which could permit only limited movement with building resistance. Another is a bearing breakage, which could have the same symptoms. I've seen both in the past. Or as Rod suggests, incorrectly assembled conrod.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[Alec Pringle]

Afterthought,

 

if the engine has been built really tight, and left standing, you may initially need a 3 foot bar on the end of the crank to get it to turn - rings sticking in the bores - and give the bar some serious grunt. A 1 foot bar won't do it, unless your mechanic is Charles Atlas ! I've been there . . . think 4-500 ft/lb of torque.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[PJM]

Is it possible for the thrust bearing to have worked loose/dropped? A friend had this on a spitfire engine and it gave all the symptons of being seized.

[angelfj]

Is it possible for the thrust bearing to have worked loose/dropped? A friend had this on a spitfire engine and it gave all the symptons of being seized.

 

 

PJM: We certainly will know very soon.

 

Cheers, Frank

[angelfj]

Hi Frank,

 

It isn't as simple as something jamming between the ring gear and the bottom of the clutch housing by any chance ?.

 

With the front cover plate off the clutch housing, you should be able to fish around with a piece of wire to see if there is clearance right around the bottom of the ring gear.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

 

Viv: Wish it was that simple. The cover plate happened to be off during all of this mess and we couldn't find anything that had fallen or had wedged itself against the ring gear.

 

Cheers, Frank

[angelfj]

Please confirm.

 

Also, do you think the problem has got worse, in that the starter now

doesn't seem able to turn the engine, or is it just that the power of the

starter overcame the resistance before and you weren't aware of it?

 

AlanR

 

That's a question that may never be answered.

[angelfj]

Frank; two things;

 

1. Have you got water in the engine and is it 'hydraulicking' ? im assuming not, but do confirm.

 

engine has never been filled with anti-freeze

 

2. There is a possibility that the crank bearings are binding, too tight assembly (?) or a rod bolt catching ....... if its this you should be able to see from underneath

 

mechanic was to drop the pan yesterday - waiting for a report

3. Cracked liner, stopping a piston moving up and down, so locking the engine up ....

 

can a liner crack even if an engine has never been run?

 

Ive seen all of this on relatively fresh engines which havent been used much, so i wonder if this is whats happened to you ?

 

Regards

 

Tony

[vivdownunder]

Hi again Frank,

 

This is probably far too late, but what I've found best to free rings up on an engine that's been unused for a long time is a dash of diesel down the plug holes, and left for 24 hours. Generally works like a charm.

 

If you've had the water pump on the engine without coolant, you might need to watch for the problem Menno had on start up, with surface rust build up on a (mild steel) shaft ruining the seal.

 

It's always a hugely frustrating experience during a rebuild to encounter problems with something you had completed, so best wishes for the easiest and least expensive solution.

 

Viv.

[angelfj]

Hi again Frank,

 

This is probably far too late, but what I've found best to free rings up on an engine that's been unused for a long time is a dash of diesel down the plug holes, and left for 24 hours. Generally works like a charm.

 

If you've had the water pump on the engine without coolant, you might need to watch for the problem Menno had on start up, with surface rust build up on a (mild steel) shaft ruining the seal.

 

It's always a hugely frustrating experience during a rebuild to encounter problems with something you had completed, so best wishes for the easiest and least expensive solution.

 

Viv.

 

Viv: as always, thanks for the great suggestions

[Tr4Tony]

Hi Frank

 

1. Have you got water in the engine and is it 'hydraulicking' ? im assuming not, but do confirm.

 

engine has never been filled with anti-freeze

 

Yes, but if its had water and its filled a bore it could be full - so not allowing the cylinder to progress up or down - take plugs out and check, pin light in hole to inspect or head off ? to look at piston tops / liner surface for evidence.

 

2. There is a possibility that the crank bearings are binding, too tight assembly (?) or a rod bolt catching ....... if its this you should be able to see from underneath

 

mechanic was to drop the pan yesterday - waiting for a report

 

another idea - fill with diesel from the plug holes and see what happens to the 'down' cyclinders. Leakage indicates duff rings ......

 

another idea - land on the std / some modern pistons are quict long, so if the reciprocating part (rod / end / piston) has moved it is possible to crack the lands off, this could all be binding on the liner surface and stopping the rise / fall. Ive seen this on a rally car and its usually sudden and hard to see until the pistons and rods are out.

 

3. Cracked liner, stopping a piston moving up and down, so locking the engine up ....

 

can a liner crack even if an engine has never been run? yes - some repro liners are very weak / oval the base, but this is the least likely of the things ive highlighted

[angelfj]

First of all, please excuse the long post. I know there is an answer out there, so I tried to be as descriptive as possible.

 

We have encountered a strange situation with the engine in my project 3A. We began the restoration of this car, TS58476LO in November 2001. During the summer of 2002, the original engine, TS58681E was completely rebuilt. Just in case questions arise as you read about my dilemma , as finished at that point in 2002, the engine included everything but intake and exhaust manifolds, distributor, valve gear, and fuel pump. The block and cylinder head, sump and timing chain were painted with epoxy high-gloss paint. All openings were sealed and the entire engine was bagged in plastic with lots of desiccant. It has been in dry storage for almost six years with the original assembly lubricant and sump completely filled with 30W oil since then. To my knowledge, up until last week the engine was never "turned over" manually or by starter since the rebuild.

 

Fast forward to last week, the current state of the restoration is a completely restored body shell mounted on the completed rolling chassis, including front and rear suspension, engine, clutch, O/D transmission, prop shaft, differential, brakes, fuel and brake lines, wheels, tires, etc. The "engine" now includes intake and exhaust manifolds but no distributor, fuel pump, carburetors or valve gear.

 

 

 

Last week the refurbished starter was installed and the engine was cranked very briefly – mainly to test the starter, and the engine did rotate several times. We stopped only because the battery was flat so we put it on charge overnight. The following morning I added the valve gear and was preparing to adjust the valves. The plan was to rotate the engine through the transmission by using a large socket and breaker bar and to rotate the nut on the transmission output flange, with the transmission engaged in 4^th gear. Before proceeding, I lubricated the engine by using a long extension and a cordless drill to spin the oil pump through the hole in the distributor pedestal. After a few seconds we had good oil pressure and the top of the cylinder head was flooded. We knew that the oil gallery was full and that the mains oil ways and bearings had lubrication. Attaching the socket and breaker bar to the transmission output flange nut we tried to rotate the engine. We were only able to turn the engine (verified by watching the crankshaft pulley) about 30 degrees before encountering a large resistance. When we tried to increase the force applied, all we accomplished was to slip the O/D brake. At first we thought there was a problem with the starter/ring gear. Removal of the starter revealed nothing obvious. No obstructions could be seen. With the starter removed we tried again to rotate the engine with no luck – got the same resistance at exactly the same point in rotation. We then suspected a problem in the transmission. We rigged up a manual lever since the clutch slave/master cylinders are not yet connected and we wanted to avoid removing the transmission if possible. With this lever attached to the clutch cross-shaft arm we were able to operate the clutch and effectively disconnect the transmission from the engine. With the clutch disengaged we were able to select all 4 forward gears and reverse and rotate the output flange. There was no obvious binding or unusual noise from the transmission or O/D. We believe that this exercise has eliminated the transmission as the cause of resistance.

 

 

 

We returned our focus to the engine. We had a theory that after the successful rotation (with starter) last week that most of the assembly oil had been scraped off of the cylinder walls, thus possibly causing the unusual resistance. We also felt that we needed a better method of applying more torque to the crankshaft than what could be transferred through the transmission/OD. One concern we had was where best to apply torque to the crankshaft. We were concerned about using the fan hub extension for fear of shearing the woodruff keys. We decided to use an old 4-jaw lathe chuck and grasp the front of the crankshaft bolt. We applied penetrating oil to each cylinder through the spark plug hole and left the engine overnight.

 

 

 

In the morning (yesterday) we applied torque to the front of the engine (crankshaft bolt / 4-jaw chuck) – no luck – at least we did not feel comfortable applying more force through a longer lever-arm.

 

What to do next? We decided to drop the oil pan and possibly remove the timing chain cover. This was to be done today and I am waiting for a call from the shop with a report of what they found.

 

 

 

This has me very frustrated. How/why did the engine turn over last week with the starter and now we seem to be stuck? Let's face it. This is a 4 cylinder, wet liner tractor engine. How more basic can you get?

 

 

 

If you have encountered such a problem and/or have any suggestions please let me know.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Frank

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update. Friday, 10-3-08, 18:00 EDT

 

Oil drained - crystal clear - no trash.

 

oil filter off and drained - filter element clean no evidence of trash.

 

pan off - nothing obvious. no nuts, bolts, washers, or other trash in pan.

 

initial inspection shows most surfaces generously coated with assembly lube.

 

all connecting rods installed correctly.

 

tomorrow morning main and thrust bearings will be removed and examined along with crankshaft journals.

 

if crank still doesn't turn (while it is disconnected from the pistons) the problem must be in the clutch, flywheel, ring gear area. If the crankshaft does move, the problem has to be one or more stuck pistons. Then the head must come off.

 

hope to have another update later this weekend

[RogerH]

Hi Frank,

with the big ends undone you should be able to push the pistons up the bore although they may be stiff. No need to remove head to test piston movement.

 

Just to cheer you up I have had a lateral thought - movement is 'the rate of change of distance'. Rate = time.

Quite clearly you have encountered an area of galactic temporal absence where time stands still (usually found on the Isle of Wight). I remember this from an episode of Startrek.

 

Keep smiling, you will find the answer

 

Roger