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Sabrina engines


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I always thought that the engines from the TRS Le Mans cars were lost forever but in a recent email from Charles Runyan at the Roadster Factory he says as part of an ad for their engine and component rebuild services:

 

All rebuilds from C.A.R. Components are guaranteed for one full year, and all workmanship is first class. In fact, I have asked Tom if he would like to build a couple of Triumph "Sabrina" Twin Cam Engines for me.

 

I have enough parts to build about three engines, and two of these will go into my Triumph TRS LeMans racing cars. One of my cars is completely dismantled, and I would like to restore it over the next two or three years. The fact that I have asked Tom Spadafora to build the Sabrina engines is the strongest recommendation I can give him for doing similar work on your components.

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Hi Stan,

 

some of the various (they came in 3 separate evolutions) 'Sabrina' engines have definitely been lost forever, the fate of others is still unknown, and several survive in various stages of completion and/or modification - together with a small number of additional components.

 

The location of the various remaining engines and components isn't exactly secret, it's more on a 'need to know' basis. Let's just say that sufficient people know the locations, and that there's little danger of anything being lost !

 

The likelihood of the 'unknown' items resurfacing is by now probably pretty limited - a handful of TR guys have been researching that subject for more than 30 years . . .

 

The Sabrina engine really wasn't that special, contrary to popular belief, at least in performance terms - power output was comparable to a good TR5 or 6, without the torque or flexibility, and it was one heck of a noisy thing. I wouldn't envy anyone having to drive a TR4S, let alone a TR3S, for 24 racing hours.

 

And before anyone jumps down my throat to disagree, yes I have driven a TR4S at racing speeds, and also several other Le Mans cars of the era with which to compare it.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

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  • 3 weeks later...

What I always wondered why, IS, "Why no one has been able to get hold of a head and remanufacture them in iron or alloy!!"

 

Would make a great basis for slapping on a racing TR4 block, separate cams that could be cut to suit, with some monster Webbers.

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Hi Jon,

 

That's a wonderful notion, but unfortunately a bit of a struggle.

 

The Sabrina wasn't built around a TR block, but had its own shorter depth casting (with an alloy crankcase and separate alloy sump), so a re cast Sabrina head and alloy front drive setup with the "protrusions" wouldn't fit onto a TR4 block. Also, on the Sabrina, the starter was mounted higher up to allow for the clutch slave cylinder to swap sides, so as to avoid the exhaust pipes from the cross flow head.

 

In the event that a design exercise showed a TR4 block would accept a facsimile Sabrina DOHC head with front drive, then a ballpark figure on costs ahead for patterns, tooling, prototype and production testing would be roughly 100,000 GDP. The front drive housing is complicated by having to incorporate the distributor, seeing there is no cam to drive it from the side of the block. One short cut would be where the Sabrina used a normal TR water pump incorporated into the alloy front housing, and now a modern electric water pump could be substituted.

 

It comes down to stumping up the tooling outlay, then if the DOHC head is successful, establishing a viable business for the conversion kits.

 

Best regards,

 

Viv.

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What I always wondered why, IS, "Why no one has been able to get hold of a head and remanufacture them in iron or alloy!!"

 

Would make a great basis for slapping on a racing TR4 block, separate cams that could be cut to suit, with some monster Webbers.

 

Seems like a good time to remember the LawrenceTune cross flow hemi head that was available for the four pot TR engine in the sixties - so these sorts of things can be done. That head's weakest point was the fact that the valves were operated by pushrods which were set at less than ideal angles. It would be nice to have one on a car as a conversation piece.

 

Nick

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Seems like a good time to remember the LawrenceTune cross flow hemi head that was available for the four pot TR engine in the sixties - so these sorts of things can be done. That head's weakest point was the fact that the valves were operated by pushrods which were set at less than ideal angles. It would be nice to have one on a car as a conversation piece.

 

Nick

Nick do you have any more information on this head?

Stuart.

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Nick do you have any more information on this head?

Stuart.

Stuart,

There is some info and a photo in "Triumph TR Maintenance, Modification & Tuning" by J.L.S. Maclay.

I'm sure you have a copy, but if not I will scan the relevant pages and email them to you (although the photo is a little faint). For those who haven't seen it, it's an interesting (historically-speaking) book published in 1967 and long since out of print, although copies do come up on eBay from time to time and I've even seen them in second-hand bookshops at reasonable prices.

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Thanks for that Brian, Its one I didnt have.

I wonder if anybody is still running a Lawrencetune cross flow head or come to that the Tecalemet fuel injection system. There was a 3.8 MK2 Jaguar around in the seventies that had been a Tecalement Injection test car, apparently it went like stink but did between 8 and 10 miles to the gallon!

Stuart

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Seems like a good time to remember the LawrenceTune cross flow hemi head that was

available for the four pot TR engine in the sixties - so these sorts of things can be done.

That head's weakest point was the fact that the valves were operated by pushrods which

were set at less than ideal angles. It would be nice to have one on a car as a conversation piece.

 

"Available", perhaps, but did anyone buy one?

 

Only one I've ever heard of was acquired by Reg Woodcock.

From his comments on it, conversation piece - yes, but better

as a door stop than on the car!

 

AlanR

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Hi Jon,

 

That's a wonderful notion, but unfortunately a bit of a struggle.

 

The Sabrina wasn't built around a TR block, but had its own shorter depth casting (with an alloy crankcase and separate alloy sump), so a re cast Sabrina head and alloy front drive setup with the "protrusions" wouldn't fit onto a TR4 block. Also, on the Sabrina, the starter was mounted higher up to allow for the clutch slave cylinder to swap sides, so as to avoid the exhaust pipes from the cross flow head.

 

In the event that a design exercise showed a TR4 block would accept a facsimile Sabrina DOHC head with front drive, then a ballpark figure on costs ahead for patterns, tooling, prototype and production testing would be roughly 100,000 GDP. The front drive housing is complicated by having to incorporate the distributor, seeing there is no cam to drive it from the side of the block. One short cut would be where the Sabrina used a normal TR water pump incorporated into the alloy front housing, and now a modern electric water pump could be substituted.

 

It comes down to stumping up the tooling outlay, then if the DOHC head is successful, establishing a viable business for the conversion kits.

 

Best regards,

 

Viv.

Aha and OUCH!!!

 

Not built for 4 block - Oh well. Doubt even a wilder DOHC Cammed one would get close to 220-230bhp of my so I feel fine with that!

 

Be fun to try it though..........Oh Well.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

 

On the subject of hard to get books. Does anyone have a PDF copy of the Roger Williams "how to improve TR4" book. I would be happy to pay for this book, but it seems impossible to find one. Seeing as how it is out of print Im sure no rules are being broken by making it available on the net.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

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Hi,

 

On the subject of hard to get books. Does anyone have a PDF copy of the Roger Williams "how to improve TR4" book. I would be happy to pay for this book, but it seems impossible to find one. Seeing as how it is out of print Im sure no rules are being broken by making it available on the net.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

 

Richard, I'm not an intellectual property lawyer but I would guess that just because a book is out of print it doesnt mean that you are free to copy and distribute it.

 

Stan

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Well apparently my 4 cyl is close to 200 bhp at the flywheel, with 87mm P&L, original 511695 head and twin 45 webers .... so id hazard a guess that 230bhp on a 90 / 91 mm wet liner with reliable liquid retention is on the cards ......

 

If I could get my hands on a twin cam, crossflow or a 16v head for BST 82 B im sure we could get more ooooomph .......

 

So, anyone up for a custom 16v or crossflow head for a 4 cylinder TR ? 12 units makes it dooable at £5000 a head ..... ive looked hard at this .....

 

Tony

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If a cross flow head was made where would the exhaust manifold go? There's not a lot of room :)

Have a look at the Lawrencetune cross-flow head in Plate 11 of the Maclay book referred to above.

Not a very clear picture (either in the PDF or original printed version) but although it looks like this one is in a Morgan, I'm sure something similar could be (and probably was) done on a TR4.

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Well apparently my 4 cyl is close to 200 bhp at the flywheel, with 87mm P&L, original 511695 head and twin 45 webers .... so id hazard a guess that 230bhp on a 90 / 91 mm wet liner with reliable liquid retention is on the cards ......

 

If I could get my hands on a twin cam, crossflow or a 16v head for BST 82 B im sure we could get more ooooomph .......

 

So, anyone up for a custom 16v or crossflow head for a 4 cylinder TR ? 12 units makes it dooable at £5000 a head ..... ive looked hard at this .....

 

Tony

I don'y know of another 92mm engine that is even at the 200bhp fly mark (the heads have to have alot of trick stuff done to them - not just giving to Burgess!), he alloy head owe me £8000 in development, every single component in the engine is one off and bespoke. I've raced against alot of 89 or 91mm engine on 45's and they are no way compared to my 4's.

 

Most FIA 87 mm all steel lumps (like a good MASS Lump) make about 190bhp on big 48's (they are only 2200ish cc's and have to rev like crazy).

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  • 3 months later...
Stuart - I have nothing more to add to what others have said about the references in the Mclay book. Years ago I saw the head in a Morgan, like the book photo, but I've never heard of one in a TR.

 

Hello,

 

Just to add a bit of information (I'm from the Morgan side of the fence by the way) in his recent autobiography 'Morgan Maverick' Chris Lawrence says of his angle valve, cross-flow head;

 

"During the winter of '65/66 I built a 2.6-litre block assembly employing pistons from the 2.7-litre Coventry Climax Tasman engine. These got the [compression] ratio back up to 10.5:1 and the head really came into its own. The engine apart from providing Neil Dangerfield with a significant success at the last ever race meeting held at Goodwood in 1966......"

 

The race was I believe a handicap race (in which he was on scratch) and the Dangerfield car in question was the sole Triumph SLR that Lawrence had built in 1963 on a Triumph TR4 chassis.

 

Andy

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Well Tony, if you REALLY want a twin cam sabrina type engine in your tr then drop me a line. I may have just the thing for you as thats what i'm making for myself at the moment and its as easy to make two or three as it is the one.

 

As for the lawarence tune x flow head. it was rubbish. Ive seen them, held them in my hands, spoke to chris lawarence, his mechanics and Reg W and tracked a couple down but as the man said. they make a good door stop. As did the lightweight solid liner TR 4 cylinder block I found!

 

Hogie.

 

 

 

Well apparently my 4 cyl is close to 200 bhp at the flywheel, with 87mm P&L, original 511695 head and twin 45 webers .... so id hazard a guess that 230bhp on a 90 / 91 mm wet liner with reliable liquid retention is on the cards ......

 

If I could get my hands on a twin cam, crossflow or a 16v head for BST 82 B im sure we could get more ooooomph .......

 

So, anyone up for a custom 16v or crossflow head for a 4 cylinder TR ? 12 units makes it dooable at £5000 a head ..... ive looked hard at this .....

 

Tony

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Jan 2009 update from a TRF newsletter:

 

I have decided to start work on the restoration of my disassembled Triumph TRS LeMans Racing Car, and along with the decision to rebuild the car, I have decided to begin the project to rebuild two Triumph 'Sabrina' twin cam racing engines, one for the car to be rebuilt and one for our other TRS which is currently drivable with a TR4 engine installed. I have been inspired by Mike Otto, a German Triumph enthusiast who has already restored a TRS.

 

If all goes well, it may make sense to enter a car in the classic LeMans in France in June 2010, which is the 50th anniversary of the first appearance of the TRS model at LeMans in 1960.

 

 

 

The Sabrina engines will be rebuilt at C.A.R. Components by Tom Spadafora with help from anyone who can provide parts, information, sources, specifications, and machine work. Certainly, we shall be relying heavily on my friend John Ames, former owner of a TRS and current owner of the Sabrina powered Michelotti prototype known as "The Conrero." We are only starting on the engine project now, but I hope to have a rolling TRS chassis and a mock-up Sabrina engine on display at Summer Party 2009 in August. These goals should be achievable, as the chassis and the components for the rolling chassis are all in hand and in good condition with exception of the rear axle. The running engine and body restoration are a different story, and I do not know if we can meet the deadline of June 2010.

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Best of luck. A truly worthwhile project to take on.

 

Regards

 

Tony

 

Agreed, and just to be clear, that text was cut from a message from Charles Runyan at TRF, he's the one with the TRS and the restoration project etc. I only have a lowly two for a penny TR6.

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