MARK Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Sorry to interupt playtime but going back to Webers. I have a triple set of old 40 DCOE' s. I have bought some rebuild kits as they are running very rich. I have the Weber Haynes manual and article from MG Magazine ! ( dont shout at me for that !) on weber rebuild. Has anyone had any success on a home rebuild of Webers or am I going to be wasting time and effort on some that should be left to an expert?. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny250 Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 If you are ok for a 2 hour drive from you the best rolling road man for a tr is Dennis Vessey he does all of racetorations cars and mineRegard's Neil Thanks Neil, Quark: I put in Dennis Vessey to Google and it came up with a country wide map showing rolling roaders.... neat! There seems to be one in Norwich (Clive Attow) but I don't know if he has seen a TR...but probably has seen Webers. JohnC: I hope your M Webber has a good race today as long as he finishes just behind DC and Lewis Regards John (Non Wingeing Pomme ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Sorry to interupt playtime but going back to Webers. I have a triple set of old 40 DCOE' s. I have bought some rebuild kits as they are running very rich. I have the Weber Haynes manual and article from MG Magazine ! ( dont shout at me for that !) on weber rebuild.Has anyone had any success on a home rebuild of Webers or am I going to be wasting time and effort on some that should be left to an expert?. Mark Mark, did these once work correctly and then started to run rich or have they always been like this, ie, do they need rebuilding or just re-jetting for the TR ?. Floats, jets, filters, gaskets etc are all pretty easy to get at. Once you get into accelerator pumps and throttle spindles it looks more complicated but still doesnt look too bad. One of the best guides to dismantling a dcoe is the factory service manual. I have a pdf version of it that I downloaded from somewhere. It is in Italian and English.. cant find the original link at the moment but if you PM me an email address I can send it. It is around 2mb. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quark Posted June 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Thanks Neil, Quark: I put in Dennis Vessey to Google and it came up with a country wide map showing rolling roaders.... neat! There seems to be one in Norwich (Clive Attow) but I don't know if he has seen a TR...but probably has seen Webers. JohnC: I hope your M Webber has a good race today as long as he finishes just behind DC and Lewis Regards John (Non Wingeing Pomme ) I have contacted Clive Atthow and for other peoples information, he tells me that he does indeed have experience in setting up Webers on a TR6. My current setup is as follows: The head has been stage two tuned. My inlet manifold is a TWM stamped 0089 the exhaust manifold is a Pheonix bought by the previous owner in 2003 from TRGB part no. X700? The cam spec is as follows: Seat duration, 282 deg, 0.05" open duration = 236.2 deg, cam lift 0.290", lobe separation angle 110 deg. Timings at 0.50" lifter rise: intake opens 8.1deg BTDC, closes 48.1 deg ABDC, exhaust opens 48.1 deg BTDC exhaust closes 8.1 deg BTDC My carbs are DCOE 40 type 2 and have the current jetting: Choke 28, Main jet 120, Emulsion tube F11, Air corrector jet 175, Idling jet 50 F8, Pump jet 40, Starter jet 60 F5 I would rather not change all the jets and then find I need to change them all again when I get to the rolling road. Do you think these settings get me the 30 miles to Norwich without conking out or catching fire or should I change anything before I set off? Thanks to everyone for their help, especially Neil's PM Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 My carbs are DCOE 40 type 2 and have the current jetting: Choke 28, Main jet 120, Emulsion tube F11, Air corrector jet 175, Idling jet 50 F8, Pump jet 40, Starter jet 60 F5 Do you think these settings get me the 30 miles to Norwich without conking out or catching fire or should I change anything before I set off? I think so. I suggest resetting the floats to 8.5mm up / 15mm down and ensuring the needle valves are closing. If you're running an electric fuel pump make sure the pressure is OK for the carbs ( ~ 4 psi ). The jets seem within range and if you don't use a heavy foot you're not likely to damage anything ( main worry is too lean mixture ). As for home rebuild: I've done 74,000 miles on a set of really old 40DCOE18s ( brass throttle shafts ) which had everything removed except the throttle shafts/bearings, then put back. We took the trouble to replate the screws and polish up the brass fittings. In that time I had one lead plug fall out and cause a leak. Otherwise 100% reliable. So unless you've got corrosion, damage or bad throttle shaft bearings you should be OK with a home rebuild. Regrease the bearings and fit new dust covers. Note that used Webers may be subject to bodging by drilling holes where they don't belong ( progression holes, for example ) or jets that have been soldered and redrilled to different sizes, without indication. Inspect the progression holes ( should be 3 holes each )and throttle plates for drillings ( should be none ). Changing jets will erase some of the risk, so it's not all for the bad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) Hello all Glad we have got back talking about Weber’s now, just a tip from when you get back from a rolling road to help you get them running sweet. Best will in the world a good rolling road man can only jet the car with a healthy engine and ideally a single exit exhaust the only thing he will not be able to do is the idle mixture screws . Yes basic setting screw home then back 2.5 turns the best judge of mixture is in your engine the spark plugs. Run the car not just round the block 30min’s of variable driving take the plugs out keep them in order note the colour , white to lean turn the idle mixture screw quarter of a turn anti-clockwise, black to rich the opposite this will stop spitting and will stop the car dying at low revs when setting off. Before you ask the idle mixture is on top nearest to inlet manifold. Hope you find this useful Regards, Neil Edited June 23, 2008 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Hello all Glad we have got back talking about Weber's now, just a tip from when you get back from a rolling road to help you get them running sweet. Best will in the world a good rolling road man can only jet the car with a healthy engine and ideally a single exit exhaust the only thing he will not be able to do is the idle mixture screws . Yes basic setting screw home then back 2.5 turns the best judge of mixture is in your engine the spark plugs. Run the car not just round the block 30min's of variable driving take the plugs out keep them in order note the colour , white to lean turn the idle mixture screw quarter of a turn anti-clockwise, black to rich the opposite this will stop spitting and will stop the car dying at low revs when setting off. Before you ask the idle mixture is on top nearest to inlet manifold. Hope you find this useful Regards, Neil Good info Neil. Its great that we have a growing Weber community here. There was a time when it was just Tom F evangelizing on his own but we are approaching critical mass with four or five Weber afficionados. Stan Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 the only thing he will not be able to do is the idle mixture screws . Yes basic setting screw home then back 2.5 turns Mine are 1 turn open max. Rich jets I've had slightly over 1/2 turn open. The sole printed reference supporting this range for idle jets I've come across is Borg Warner's Warneford manual on tuning Webers, where it says the proper choice of idle jet should be set between 1/2 and 1 turn open. Others like Haynes agree with the above. What I don't know is if modern Webers are any different in this regard from the vintage ones which I run Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) Mine are 1 turn open max. Rich jets I've had slightly over 1/2 turn open. The sole printed reference supporting this range for idle jets I've come across is Borg Warner's Warneford manual on tuning Webers, where it says the proper choice of idle jet should be set between 1/2 and 1 turn open. Others like Haynes agree with the above. What I don't know is if modern Webers are any different in this regard from the vintage ones which I run Yes Tom they are and unfortunately not as well made as your's Regard's Neil Edited June 23, 2008 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Blimey Stan, evangelizing afficionados approaching critical mass . . . The mind positively boggles !! You must be having a good day !! Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Blimey Stan, evangelizing afficionados approaching critical mass . . . The mind positively boggles !! You must be having a good day !! Cheers, Alec Hey, I've finally got oil pressure, does it get any better than that ? Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Hi Stan, Well done that man, What's the secret oil additive ? Viagra ? Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Hi Stan, Well done that man, What's the secret oil additive ? Viagra ? Cheers, Alec If I thought it would help get the oil pressure up I would have added it but I'll stick with zddp for now. I'll update the woe is me topic shortly with an update. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roulli Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Yes Tom they are and unfortunately not as well made as your's Regard's Neil Hi Weber community, my tripple 40 DCOEs are unfortunately made in Spain. In what consist actually the notorious lack of quality compared to the original Italian ones? I know the linkage of the TWM collector can be improved for allowing a better synchronization. But the carburettors themselves...? (TR6 under restoration) Cheers, Patrick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Hi Weber community, my tripple 40 DCOEs are unfortunately made in Spain. In what consist actually the notorious lack of quality compared to the original Italian ones? I know the linkage of the TWM collector can be improved for allowing a better synchronization. But the carburettors themselves...? (TR6 under restoration) Cheers, Patrick Hi Patrick, My dcoe 40's are new (December 2007) and I was a little disappointed in the build quality. They are not a disaster but it was little things like three out of the six accelerator pump jets were jammed into the casting and nothing would get them out without resorting to measures that harmed the jets. The other three were fine and after wiggling them to break the seal they lifted out easily. Another area that was just made poorly was the cold start cable clamps. Some of them worked correctly but two or three did not and I had to ream the holes in the cold start levers to allow the clamps to function correctly. So nothing major but irritating. My carbs were part of a kit that came with a Cannon manifold and linkage. The Cannon manifold is ok. Not great but ok. The Cannon linkage is functional but low quality. The throttle bar had distorted ends where it had been cut so it had to be ground before it would pass through the holes in the mounting pillars. The bar is uneven thickness along its length so I had to ream the middle mount to get the bar through it. All of this hacking means that the plating was removed in these areas. The cannon supplied aluminum fuel T’s look like cheap ****. The bracket for the bell crank just plain old doesn’t fit. The holes are in the wrong location on the bracket and they are the wrong size (too small) for the supplied bolts. I have already replaced the fuel T’s and the bell crank and once I verify that the carbs work on my engine and that the carbs are staying I will junk the rest of the Cannon linkage and see if I can source better parts from Pierce. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 For the folks that have the 3xdcoe's I would be interested in comparing notes regarding the throttle linkage that you are using. For example, is it bell crank or cable and how does the throttle return work, are the springs in the carbs enough to close the throttles or do you have some other external mechanism hooked up ? On the RHD cars I assume the mechanism is cable based and that is the most interesting scenario to me at this time but would be interested in hearing about other options. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quark Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 For the folks that have the 3xdcoe's I would be interested in comparing notes regarding the throttle linkage that you are using. For example, is it bell crank or cable and how does the throttle return work, are the springs in the carbs enough to close the throttles or do you have some other external mechanism hooked up ? On the RHD cars I assume the mechanism is cable based and that is the most interesting scenario to me at this time but would be interested in hearing about other options. Stan The linkages I got with my Webers are TWM. I have an 'instruction sheet' with them that have some diagrams of the linkage but no assembly instructions. If anyone is interested I could scan the diagram and send it to you - but I would be interested if anyone has any advice on assembly and especially any photographs of the complete setup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roulli Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) I have also the TWM one piece manifold and linkage. Photos and advice for improvement of the tripple sidedraft carbs linkage can be found here: http://www.sideways-technologies.co.uk/ scroll down and click on: Weber, Solex, Dellorto, SU - Carburettors scroll down and click on: Weber/Dellorto Manifolds for Triumph 6 cylinders Cheers, Patrick Edited June 25, 2008 by roulli Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 The linkages I got with my Webers are TWM. I have an 'instruction sheet' with them that have some diagrams of the linkage but no assembly instructions. If anyone is interested I could scan the diagram and send it to you - but I would be interested if anyone has any advice on assembly and especially any photographs of the complete setup. Any good ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quark Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Any good ? Aaaha - your throttle linkage is at the top - mine has a bell crank to take the linkage below the carbs. Did you manufacture the cable mounting bracket yourself or get it off the shelf? I was wondering about fitting heat shields with the hope of mounting a return spring from them and bringing the throttle linkage to the top - as you have - any views on the pros & cons of this approach? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Any good ? That is an interesting configuration as it keeps the cable and the return spring in the same plane and it looks like the return spring is hooked around the the clip securing the crank vent hose. I have a cable mechanism that comes up from beteen carbs 1&2. The cable works fine but the return spring is a challenge. Tom F is using a bell crank with a solid bar (easier to do with the LHD cars since this is how the strombergs are hooked up) so his solid bar approach means he can use the standard throttle lever return spring since the bar can push as easily as it can pull. Once you go cable the return spring arrangement is more of an issue. I was thinking of a bracket to attach to one or more of the manifold-to-carb studs and hook a spring to that but I'm not sure how much headroom we have to work with before hitting the underside of the bonnet.. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) That is an interesting configuration as it keeps the cable and the return spring in the same plane and it looks like the return spring is hooked around the the clip securing the crank vent hose. I have a cable mechanism that comes up from beteen carbs 1&2. The cable works fine but the return spring is a challenge. Tom F is using a bell crank with a solid bar (easier to do with the LHD cars since this is how the strombergs are hooked up) so his solid bar approach means he can use the standard throttle lever return spring since the bar can push as easily as it can pull. Once you go cable the return spring arrangement is more of an issue. I was thinking of a bracket to attach to one or more of the manifold-to-carb studs and hook a spring to that but I'm not sure how much headroom we have to work with before hitting the underside of the bonnet.. Stan That is an interesting configuration as it keeps the cable and the return spring in the same plane and it looks like the return spring is hooked around the the clip securing the crank vent hose. Hello Stan I for one would not attach a throttle return spring to a clip it is attached through a small hole in the rib of the rocker cover I have had four tripple webered cars with this setup and i have coverd over 25000 miles in the cars with no prob's at all, a throttle return spring is a must, I do not know of this bell crank setup but i think Patrick's link just about sum's it up Edited June 25, 2008 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I for one would not attach a throttle return spring to a clip it is attached through a small hole in the rib of the rocker cover Sorry, couldnt see that detail in the picture. Those are very thin filters, do you have little trumpets under there too ? Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Sorry, couldnt see that detail in the picture. Those are very thin filters, do you have little trumpets under there too ? Stan Yes Stan available here http://www.webcon.co.uk/weber/performance_carbs.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I have also the TWM one piece manifold and linkage.Photos and advice for improvement of the tripple sidedraft carbs linkage can be found here: http://www.sideways-technologies.co.uk/ scroll down and click on: Weber, Solex, Dellorto, SU - Carburettors scroll down and click on: Weber/Dellorto Manifolds for Triumph 6 cylinders Cheers, Patrick The CANNON manifold ( USA ) is a third option not given in the above link. The tales of woe therein are a surprise to me, as I've no complaints about my systems after 74,000 miles. TWM make a better looking linkage but the stamped and plated arms worked fine for me too. Balancing idles may require fitting throttle levers to the outboard ends of the carbs and fitting extra springs thereto as the butterflies don't quite close concurrently; if the outboard closes ahead of the inboard ( i.e. the one attached to the arm ) no extra spring is needed. The Cannon manifold with its balance tubes addresses this in any case. Here's what the CANNON set up looks like with TWM linkage: I reckon RHD cars have little option but to use a cable; my LHD cars both use factory carb linkage to the CANNON supplied bell crank Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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