Thrust washer Sizes

[jean]

Guy, I just looked up the latest compression tests on my TR6. The readings are between 163 and 174 psi. The engine had done about 20k miles after overhaul.

[Richard Crawley]

Guy, I just looked up the latest compression tests on my TR6. The readings are between 163 and 174 psi. The engine had done about 20k miles after overhaul.

Hi Jean. Spot on the pressure range I would expect & pretty good at just over 6% differential; but I would still be a just a little suspicious if it's just one cylinder that's pulling that figure down!

[Jersey Royal]

Them’s pretty high readings Guy! They normally range between 150 -170, what sort of test gauge do you have? Is it accurate? Although it probably doesn’t matter too much; I assume ‘wet’ is with a squirt of oil in the cylinder?

 

I would say 10% differential is the absolute max. &, for me, would be an indicator to have a look see what’s going on in the not to distant future before things deteriorated too far.

 

You’ve taken 3 sets of readings & I have been spending some time analysing what they might mean, here are my thoughts:

 

Number 5 seems to have a little problem in my view at around 9% & if you ignore this cylinder, the rest of the readings are within 6% which for a motor with 90k on the clock is pretty good. Interestingly the oil in the bore trick doesn’t make a tremendous difference or stand out when compared to the effect on the other cylinders.

 

So (sticking my neck out here); I don’t think you have any serious problems & I suspect it may be just a case of the valves letting by a bit (assume the tappets are adjusted OK). I would have a look at the head, lap the valves & do a retest to see if the readings then equalise; if they do, you’re home & dry. Trouble if it’s not converted to U/L you will loose any lead memory you may currently have & I’m not sure what you do by way of additives; I bit the bullet & had a U/L conversion & added a stage 2 tune for good measure!

 

The tell tale hole in the pedestal is on the underside next to the fuel distributor; if you have a look in the BL manual page 12:10:24 (sheet 2), it shows exactly where it is.

 

Richard,

 

Thanks for taking the time to look at the figures

 

I concur those readings are high, the gauge i am using is a screw in type Draper Dct1 tool, its new and i havent used it before, so should realy be accurate , but who knows.

 

I havent check the tappets, think i may have a look at those to check on adjustment.. Taking the head off is unchartered territory for me, and am not sure if i would get it all back together, and engine would blow up on its first outing. Although i would love to take it to bits.

So would need to find someone to do the work, dought i would find some one local to do the work at a resonable price, So would have to take to Uk., i bought the car from TRGB , however Revington have done the ,majority of the expensive bits years ago.

 

So lots to think about.

 

Checked the manual and found the hole, i should have seen that .

 

Thanks Again

 

Guy

Edited November 10, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[Jersey Royal]

Hi Jean. Spot on the pressure range I would expect & pretty good at just over 6% differential; but I would still be a just a little suspicious if it's just one cylinder that's pulling that figure down!

 

 

Hi Thanks for that, the low one is no 5 which is on the right of the distributor, it wasnt easy getting it in there. Think i will recheck no 5 tomorrow, to ensure i was getting a proper seal.

 

Regards

 

Guy

[Bald Rick]

Hi Guy

 

These engines are basically quite simple and rebuilding them is not beyond the scope of a competent individual with a decent set of tools and basic mechanical knowledge. From what you have already done on the car I would say you should be able to do it without any problems.

 

Buy a workshop manual and have a good look at that first. I would suggest a Haynes manual to start with as the full Triumph worshop manual can be a bit intimidating.

 

If after reading the manual you feel confident that you can do it then go for it. There are a lot of people on this forum who will give you help and advice. I would imagine that the car is not your daily driver so you won't have to complete the work to a tight schedle if you don't want to.

 

I've just had a quick look in the Haynes manual and you can replace main bearings, big ends, remove and replace pistons etc with the engine in the car. If you need to have the grankshaft reground then you will have to take the engine out.

 

When I strip down an engine I mark and label unfamiliar parts and put all the small bits in plastic ice cream or chinese food cartons and label them. This sort of thing makes re-assembly easier.

 

I don't know if there are any engine re-conditioners in Jersey? But if there are then you can get the crank re-ground and the block re-bored (if necessary)

 

it is a great experience to rebuild an engine yourself and start it up in your car. I hadn't worked on a car for 30 years before I bought my TR6 and I spend more time taking to bits than I do driving it. For me thats all part of the fun. I have loads of photos of my engine rebuild that I can send to you if they would help?

 

Good luck

 

Tony

Edited November 10, 2007 by Bald Rick

[Jersey Royal]

Hi Tony

 

I think you have read my mind, i have just started to read through the engine section in the Haynes manual, i also have the brown book triumph repair manual and was just given a 1977repair manual,which has a white front, plus the workshop manual supplement.

 

Funny thing is i had started keeping old ice cream tubs, as you say they are very usefull, the girlfriend thinks i am mad.

 

I have for a long time wanted to get hold of an old triumph engine, just to take it to bits and sort it out.

 

There are a couple of machine shops over here, so will make some inquiries.

And yes i would appreciate some photos. You can e mial them to me if thats ok to

 

guytherin@googlemail.com

 

Best Regards

 

Guy

Edited November 10, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[Richard Crawley]

quote name='Jersey Royal' date='Nov 10 2007, 09:25 PM' post='78710']

I havent check the tappets, think i may have a look at those to check on adjustment.. Taking the head off is unchartered territory for me, and am not sure if i would get it all back together, and engine would blow up on its first outing. Although i would love to take it to bits.

So would need to find someone to do the work, dought i would find some one local to do the work at a resonable price, So would have to take to Uk., i bought the car from TRGB , however Revington have done the ,majority of the expensive bits years ago.

 

So lots to think about.

 

Guy; just to re-iterate, I don't think you have anything serious to worry about & nothing so terribly wrong that it warrants an immediate strip down & despatching parts of your motor to foreign lands, especially with the expense that will involve & they really are easy motors to work on yourself!

 

There are signs of something not quiet right on no. 5 but if the motor is running fine & you want to use the car, check the tappets, check for any signs of oil in the coolant & just keep an eye on it until your confident to have a go yourself. It wasn’t my intention to paint doom & gloom or panic you into what might be unnecessary work; I’m not a believer in “if it ain’t broke fix it until it is”!

[Jersey Royal]

Guy; just to re-iterate, I don't think you have anything serious to worry about & nothing so terribly wrong that it warrants an immediate strip down & despatching parts of your motor to foreign lands, especially with the expense that will involve & they really are easy motors to work on yourself!

 

There are signs of something not quiet right on no. 5 but if the motor is running fine & you want to use the car, check the tappets, check for any signs of oil in the coolant & just keep an eye on it until your confident to have a go yourself. It wasn’t my intention to paint doom & gloom or panic you into what might be unnecessary work; I’m not a believer in “if it ain’t broke fix it until it is”!

 

 

 

 

Thanks Richard.

 

My main concern is actually the fuel in the oil, i have found the hole in the pedistal, never knew there was one. i carefully poked a piece of wire in and it seems clear, ie didnt feel anything spongy like a rubber seal. I have new seals on order anyway.

 

I am going to check the tappets and clearances and adjust if necessary, then re check compressions.

 

 

I have also noticed a slight oil seepage from head gasket.

 

If the fuel isnt getting in via the drive on the pedistal, is it getting in via the bores.

 

Revington do a rebuild kit rtr1424k and rtr1425k, so i have enquired for a spec sheet on them.

 

Regards

 

GUY

[harrytr5]

The pedistall seals are designed to prevent petrol entering the the sump via the dizzy aperture.If the first seal fails it will leak out of the drain hole which you now have discovered.

The second seal is to keep the oil in.These are fitted back to back so I guess this is not your problem if it does not leak out of the hole.Mind you if there is no clearance between the seals it could be migrating accross.You might as well change these anyway.As I am writing this I am trying to think how petrol is getting into your sump and unless you have a very worn engine/broken piston rings,injectors pouring fuel in,it does point to the seals letting by.Pull out the dizzy and have a sniff after you have warmed her up.

Keep us posted.

Regards Harry TR5 Nutter

[Jersey Royal]

Thanks Harry,

 

i have new seals on order and will change them.

 

I have had rocker cover over and have adjusted 6, 10, 12 tappets, all too tight.

Then

Carried out warm compression test

 

1 250

2 254

3 240

4 238

5 230

6 240

 

 

Now car back in the air and draining remaining oil.Am going to get on with taking sump off, check crankshaft end float.

 

Regards

 

Guy

[Jersey Royal]

OOPS duplication

Regards

 

Guy

Edited November 11, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[Jersey Royal]

Sump is off and was suprised that it was not full of crud.

And heres some pics,

 

Crank is Stanpart with a B on it, if that has any relivance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

Guy

Edited November 11, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[jean]

Guy, I'm still puzzled why your compression reading is that high. Unde rnormal circumstances it's decreasing with engine wear. I looked up the BL workshop manual on the TR6 and it says that the acceptable difference in compression is 10 psi, so my 10% were wrong and it's closer to the 5% Richard stated. Sorry for that. If someone is interested in a very comprehensive TR6 Reference Document compiled by CCBCC's Jay Welch have a look at:

http://www.capecodbritishcarclub.org/TR6_Ref.doc

You probably get a registration window, but by clicking 3 times OK you should access the page. It's a 36 page Word Doc and will take some time to load, so be patient, but the result will be very rewarding. Just hope I got the URL right

Good luck

Edited November 12, 2007 by jean

[Chris Mountford]

Hi All,

 

Just read through the latest on this thread and in particular, Richards (RPurchon) comments re which washer takes the thrust.

 

He is indeed correct It is the rear one that takes the forward thrust.

 

Its been some time and the brain cells must be fading.....I sat for some time trying to remember and opted for front.... Apols

 

regards, Chris

[Jersey Royal]

Hi Chaps,

 

Sumps all cleaned up

 

Thrust washers arrived just now, so i will be looking at fitting them tomorrow.

 

I have not obtained con road or main bearings as yet as thought i would look at them when i was replacing thrusts.

 

What is the best way of finding out if con rod bearings or mains need replacement. ? In the site below he uses plati-gage

 

Con rod bearings should have 0.0086---0.0125 clearance

Taken from this web site item nine http://www.hottr6.com/triumph/tr6bearings.html

 

But what about the mains, i cant find any refence to clearance.?

 

Best Regards

 

Guy

[Guest ron]

Guy

I'd take one of the big end caps off and look at the bearing shell, if it's a nice even matt grey it's fine, if it's scored or worn through to the backing metal, it's time for new ones. Unless somebody has been there before I have normally found if the big ends are OK the mains are OK, but you can always take one of the main caps off to check. If you need to replace the shells I'd go for a new oil pump as well.

Don't see much point in Plastigage unless you're blueprinting, what are you going to do if the clearance is slightly out of spec? just something else to worry about.

Ron

[Jersey Royal]

Guy

I'd take one of the big end caps off and look at the bearing shell, if it's a nice even matt grey it's fine, if it's scored or worn through to the backing metal, it's time for new ones. Unless somebody has been there before I have normally found if the big ends are OK the mains are OK, but you can always take one of the main caps off to check. If you need to replace the shells I'd go for a new oil pump as well.

Don't see much point in Plastigage unless you're blueprinting, what are you going to do if the clearance is slightly out of spec? just something else to worry about.

Ron

 

Thanks for your very speedy response.

 

Will do pricisely that.

 

If i need to replace those bearings, what size, or do i just put standard in. As i thought you could get various oversizes.

 

 

Regards

 

Guy

[Guest ron]

Guy

You put in exactly what you take out, the size is marked on the back of the shell, remember and torque the cap bolts when you replace it. Please don't take this the wrong way, but the first rule of engineering applies here, if your oil pressure was OK, leave well alone.

Ron

[rpurchon]

Thanks for your very speedy response.

 

Will do pricisely that.

 

If i need to replace those bearings, what size, or do i just put standard in. As i thought you could get various oversizes.

 

 

Regards

 

Guy

 

a word of caution.

when you remove the bearing caps mark them some how.dont put them back in 180%.and keep them in order 123 etc.

the mains will have a no stamped on them and a no stamped on block sump gasket face.

hope it makes sense richard

[Jersey Royal]

a word of caution.

when you remove the bearing caps mark them some how.dont put them back in 180%.and keep them in order 123 etc.

the mains will have a no stamped on them and a no stamped on block sump gasket face.

hope it makes sense richard

 

Cheers Richard,

 

Was aware of that , but certainly a bl**dy good point for future reference

 

I will be removing no 4 cap to replace the thrusts, so i will be able to tell the condition of the bearings at that point. And will then know if i need to change the bearings etc and what to replace with.

 

Will post a picture of the existing thrusts and bearing .

 

Cheers

 

Guy

[Richard Crawley]

Guy.

I would replace all the shell bearings as a matter of course regardless of how they look. The cost is minimal compared to the advantages you will gain. I’m still running my original std. crank & when inspected at the last rebuild, was found to have negligible wear & no scoring so it went back in after a light polish.

 

With most of the older cars I’ve owned, I used to drop the sump & change the shells after around 40k miles or so; not necessary with modern engines but with the older stuff (including the 6), it helped a great deal, especially with the early 'over square' (short stroke) Fords. As I said in my earlier post, it’s important you use quality lead indium shells not cheap Chinese ****.

[Guest ron]

Sorry to disagree with you Richard, but replacing parts of cars that don't need replacing only lines the suppliers wallet, by all means replace them IF they need replaced, but if the shells are nicely run into the journals leave well alone.

The classic car movement is full of perfectly good cars that were fixed till they were broken.

Ron

[Richard Crawley]

Sorry to disagree with you Richard, but replacing parts of cars that don't need replacing only lines the suppliers wallet, by all means replace them IF they need replaced, but if the shells are nicely run into the journals leave well alone.

The classic car movement is full of perfectly good cars that were fixed till they were broken.

Ron

Hi Ron

Hmmm, yes I thought about that a bit after I’d posted; I’ve said before that I’m no believer in ‘Sunday tinkering’ & certainly don’t subscribe to ‘if it ain’t broke, fix it till it is’ .

 

Perhaps I should quantify; personally, if I’d gone to all the trouble of dropping the sump, I would replace them as a matter of course, especially if I was unsure of the bearing make, age or service history; it’s little more than an hour’s work. A new set of bearings shells certainly won’t do any harm &, even top quality ones, are hardly in a price bracket to line the suppliers wallet; I paid less than 50 quid for a full set of Vandervell’s although it was a while ago now! You will also gain the considerable benefit of bottom end longevity, the knowledge that all is sound & you won’t have to go back in there for some considerable time. I would also strip out the oil pump & check the tolerances while under there.

 

I agree, however, that if you know the history of the engine (service, mileage, drivers etc), how old the shells are (the bearing surface does have a finite working life), they show no signs of scoring & are a nice grey matt colour (as you rightly said) then, maybe, you should check the make, leave well alone & bolt them back up. At the end of the day, you pays yer money & makes yer choice; but, on balance, I think I would still replace them!

[IanR]

Hi Chaps,

I dont say a lot these days but feel I must respond to the post above of a recommended clearance of 8 to 12 thou on the big end bearings. Maybe things have changed but, if I had a 12 thou clearance on my big ends I would be looking for a regrind and/or a new set of bearings. 5 thou is what I regard as a maximum despite the recommendations given in the ref above .. Oil will literrally P""S out at 12 thou clearance. Plasitigauge is the correct way to go and ref the idea above .. what do you do if its too tight ... you scrape the bearings in until its correct with an engineers scraper if you know how to use one,... so it is worth the effort. You cannot just take a packet of bearings and stick them in and hope they work, I was taught to load, tighten and rotate a few turns dismantle, and scrape the high spots. Once an even bed was seen then the whole was washed and clearance measured . Did not have plasigauge in the 60's but the rods were closed with bearings in place and a blued precision plug gauge inserted to test roundness and clearnace against the crank pin (or main for that matter). Engines have changed but I dont believe 12 thou will give you a whole lot of oil pressure.

 

Its just my opinion and in the current parlence FWIW but no doubt SWFVD I suspect.

 

Kind regards

[Guest ron]

Hi Chaps,

I dont say a lot these days but feel I must respond to the post above of a recommended clearance of 8 to 12 thou on the big end bearings. Maybe things have changed but, if I had a 12 thou clearance on my big ends I would be looking for a regrind and/or a new set of bearings. 5 thou is what I regard as a maximum despite the recommendations given in the ref above .. Oil will literrally P""S out at 12 thou clearance. Plasitigauge is the correct way to go and ref the idea above .. what do you do if its too tight ... you scrape the bearings in until its correct with an engineers scraper if you know how to use one,... so it is worth the effort. You cannot just take a packet of bearings and stick them in and hope they work, I was taught to load, tighten and rotate a few turns dismantle, and scrape the high spots. Once an even bed was seen then the whole was washed and clearance measured . Did not have plasigauge in the 60's but the rods were closed with bearings in place and a blued precision plug gauge inserted to test roundness and clearnace against the crank pin (or main for that matter). Engines have changed but I dont believe 12 thou will give you a whole lot of oil pressure.

 

Its just my opinion and in the current parlence FWIW but no doubt SWFVD I suspect.

 

Kind regards

I'd agree with that as well, 8 to 12 thou seems to be excessive, a rattling good fit in fact, only slight disagreement I have is I was taught only to scrape solid whitemetal bearings not shell type bearings with a backing, not sure if there is enough 'meat' on them to scrape? The crank should be ground to fit the bearing not the other way round.

Ron

Edited November 17, 2007 by ron