Thrust washer Sizes

[Jersey Royal]

Hi Gents,

 

Have measured the my crank end float using a dial gauge. I have an overall movement of 0.015 inch.

 

So this is when i am unstuck, from reading previous post on the subject and looking in manuals the end float should be 0.006--0.008,. so i need to reduce the amount of play by between 0.007---0.009

 

So i should clearly remove the existing washers, but what size do i replace them with.?

 

 

Is it that i order 0.010 oversize washers which would give 0.005 end float and just sand down the washer a bit with wet and dry to obtain 0.006.?

 

 

 

Hope this makes some sense.

 

Regards

 

Guy

Edited November 8, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[Guest ron]

Guy

If it's 15 thou just now I would be inclined to monitor it and if it isn't getting any worse leave well alone, if you feel uncomfortable doing that you can fit 2 X 5 thou oversize washers. a float of 5 thou as opposed to 6 thou isn't going to make a great deal off difference, I doubt if most people could actually measure accurately enough with a dial gauge to tell the differance.

Ron

Edited November 8, 2007 by ron

[Maurice Berlage]

Hi Guy,

 

I replaced my thrust washers a couple of weeks ago and they looked like the attached picture. Before replacement, the end float was around 0.015 Inch. For replacement I used standard size washers, and end float was down to a little over 0.006.

 

Apart from the thrust washers, I also replaced big-end and main bearings. The oil pressure reading went back 30 years in time

 

 

Some more images can be found here

 

Regards,

 

Maurice Berlage

[Guest ron]

Guy, on thinking about it, after reading the previous post, disregard mine, you really need to take the sump off and check what is actually fitted and how much wear there is before you can decide what is needed, plus with the sump off you can measure the end float accurately with feeler gauges.

Ron

Edited November 8, 2007 by ron

[Jersey Royal]

Guy, on thinking about it, after reading the previous post, disregard mine, you really need to take the sump off and check what is actually fitted and how much wear there is before you can decide what is needed, plus with the sump off you can measure the end float accurately with feeler gauges.

Ron

 

Ron

 

Thanks for your advise, much appreciated.

 

Whats the weather like in bonny Scotland ?

 

Maurice,...... Welcome to the forum.

 

 

Thanks for your advise also, great pictures, they say a picture speaks a thousand words, or something like that.

 

 

I have to pop the car back to my Spray man to just reflat a couple of areas on hardtop,. Then i think i will have alook in the oily recess of my engine....

 

 

Cheers

 

Guy

Edited November 8, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[Chris Mountford]

Hi Guy,

 

From my experience its the front washer that does all the work and can fail with catastrophic (for the engine) results. The washers take the end thrust which generally only comes from depressing the clutch which has the effect of pushing the crank forward.

 

Hence the heavier the clutch cover spring, the more load the (front) thrust washer has to take. Some Borg and beck clutches from the 70's and 80's were a nightmare in this respect. My advice would be to remove the thrusts after gapping them and then add a set of standard washers. gap them again and if they are not within a reasonable tolerance, replace with oversize units.

 

Finally dont sit with the car in gear and the clutch depressed at traffic lights etc.

 

All Triumph engines of this era have the same weakness and 25 years ago I had a dolomite Sprint engine which had to be seen to be believed when it was stripped.... It had started to machine itself away. I learned that one the hard way !

 

I should have known as the engine in my 5 had been modified with a white metalled phosphor bronze 'safety' within the crankcase / block. That piece of work had been done within the first 11 years of its life as I bought it in 1979.

 

When putting the washers in make sure they are the correct way around as they can go in either way and you can guess the consequences, sorry if granny and egg sucking spring to mind, just thought i would share my experiences.

 

Regards, Chris

[Richard Crawley]

Hi Guy. I would drop the sump & change them sooner rather than later. As Chris says, it’s the front that takes all the wear so things may be rather worse than first appears. Just the reiterate; when refitting the thrusts, make sure you put them in the right way around – bearing surface facing the crank! For some strange reason, its quiet common to find them fitted incorrectly; they won’t wear as fast but it will damage the crank!

 

While you’re in there, I would definitely replace the mains B/end bearings as Maurice suggests (welcome to the Forum Maurice!). Be careful which bearings you use; I managed to get hold of a full set of OE Vandervel (not sure if that spelling is correct!) shells for my new motor but they are now very hard to come by. What you need to get by way of replacements are copper backed lead indium shells; some of the basic white metal replacements on offer just don’t. You can do all of this from underneath without removing the engine & you may as well check out the oil pump while you’re in there but it’s not a particularly nice job with oil dripping on your face!

 

By the way I been dying to ask; where do you live on Jersey? are you born & bred? working there? or a rich in-comer? I commuted there with Air UK on a weekly basis from a newly built & almost deserted Stanstead Airport (those were the days!) back in the early 90’s. I ran the project that was responsible for Post Coding Jersey & mechanising the old sorting office (old fag factory on the hill in St Hellier) before they built the new centre a few years later. Such a fascinating place & people once you get under the "holliday" surface; & working there was best, stress free 2 years of my career (so many stories!). It all looked set for me to do a repeat job in Guernsey (you must know how competitive they are!) but, to my dismay, it never came off!

[Jersey Royal]

Thanks Chris for your advise.

 

Dont worry about granny and eggs, all usefull info for me and future readers, thats how i look at it.

 

 

Oh and i have followed your Tr5 Rebuilt on its hopeful run up to Malvern, its great , loved it, hows it going now,

 

 

Richard,

 

Thanks for your advise, am going to have a good poke around in there, to be honest i dont expect many prioblems, dont know why just have this feeling. Although i have owned this car for twelve odd years , all the work that i have carried out have not been completely necessary, if you know what i mean, but have improved the car.

 

Nice to hear you have spent time in Jersey and enjoyed it. Will send you Pm shortly.

 

Regards

 

Guy

[Guest ron]

Guy

When I did my thrust washers in 2004 I replaced the front one with a solid bronze one from Scott Helms in the US of A at that time he was selling them in whatever size you wanted for $25 a pair including postage to the UK, they are far superior to the standard items as they don't have the steel backing to damage the crank if the bronze wears away plus thay are made from a far superior, harder bearing bronze than the standard.

After mine bedded in the end float has not changed in the 15000 miles since.

I can't find his website but if you're interested PM me and I'll send you his email address.

Ron

PS Weather not too bad in SW Scotland at present, I think the north's been getting a bit of a battering, it's been not too bad a summer despite all the usual moans, usual sunshine and showers. I think if there was a competition for speed of raising and lowering TR6 hoods me and the wife would do well.

PSS Woops not doing too well on this thread, it was the rear one I replaced with solid bronze.

Edited November 9, 2007 by ron

[Jersey Royal]

Guy

When I did my thrust washers in 2004 I replaced the front one with a solid bronze one from Scott Helms in the US of A at that time he was selling them in whatever size you wanted for $25 a pair including postage to the UK, they are far superior to the standard items as they don't have the steel backing to damage the crank if the bronze wears away plus thay are made from a far superior, harder bearing bronze than the standard.

After mine bedded in the end float has not changed in the 15000 miles since.

I can't find his website but if you're interested PM me and I'll send you his email address.

Ron

PS Weather not too bad in SW Scotland at present, I think the north's been getting a bit of a battering, it's been not too bad a summer despite all the usual moans, usual sunshine and showers. I think if there was a competition for speed of raising and lowering TR6 hoods me and the wife would do well.

 

Thanks Ron

 

 

Have found Scotts web page, some good info

 

http://www.britishcarweek.org/tr6.html

 

 

Washers and bearings i have come across include Vandervall, which are supposed to be good, Glacier not so good. And ACL, think they are from Oz, Revington sell them.

 

I think also Racetorations sell an uprated bronze looking bearing(Roger Williams book hoiw to improve your triumph, page 100)

 

Ok so will take sump of this weekend and see what i have first.

 

Regards

 

Guy

 

and here another interesting site

 

http://www.hottr6.com/triumph/tr6bearings.html

Edited November 9, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[rpurchon]

when checking the thrust bearings it is the REAR one that wears away.

richard.

[Maurice Berlage]

I think Richard is right. In the picture below you can see where the front washer should be located. If the crank is pushed forward (up in the picture) while pressing the clutch, this gap will open up and the gap of the rear washer will close....

 

 

BTW, because both my washers were heavily damaged, it was not really possible to measure which one was worn the most... Luckily I replaced them in time: the crank surface was not yet damaged and it was sufficient to install standard size.

 

Maurice

[Andy Moltu]

You need to measure the end float with new thrust washers - you simply don't know how much of you end float is due to crank wear or bearing wear. The simple option is to buy standards & work from there as the bearings should be the culprit.

Oversizes come in a variety of sizes and you an mix & match - such as a 5 thou ovesize with a 2.5 though one.

 

Ideally aim for an end float in the reference range however never go less as the bearing may pick up when hot & do more damage. 1 or 2 though excess end float isn't the end of the world.

[Jersey Royal]

Car is on stands, battery isolated plugs out and oil draining.

 

I did not run the car prior to putting it on stands.

 

The thing is the oil seems to have a thick consistancy, and does have a strong smell of petrol to it

 

The plugs are all out and nice and brown with the exception of no 2 which is black.

 

So whats going on here, how is petrol getting into the oil, is it possible an injector hasnt been closing or was stuck open ?

Or could this be a sign of bad bearing on the conrods allowing fuel to pass etc. Worn piston rings although car does not smoke.

 

Last time i drove the car it went brilliantly.

 

 

Or is it just me Or something more serious that i dont know about and wont like

 

 

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Regards

 

Guy

Edited November 9, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[rpurchon]

the crank went that way?

or it trys to when you push it with the clutch.or the propeller on the front if you still have one.

definatley the rear one that gets all the stick.set up with std ones and go from there.

richard

[stuart]

Car is on stands, battery isolated plugs out and oil draining.

 

I did not run the car prior to putting it on stands.

 

The thing is the oil seems to have a thick consistancy, and does have a strong smell of petrol to it

 

The plugs are all out and nice and brown with the exception of no 2 which is black.

 

So whats going on here, how is petrol getting into the oil, is it possible an injector hasnt been closing or was stuck open ?

Or could this be a sign of bad bearing on the conrods allowing fuel to pass etc. Worn piston rings although car does not smoke.

 

Last time i drove the car it went brilliantly.

 

 

Or is it just me Or something more serious that i dont know about and wont like

 

 

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Regards

 

Guy

Guy it could be No2 injector or possibly metering unit seals allowing fuel down into the sump down the drive. The latter would explain the good performance and the former would only need to be supplying a small amount extra to cause the plug to go from brown to black. May be worth a compression test as well.

Stuart.

[Jersey Royal]

Guy it could be No2 injector or possibly metering unit seals allowing fuel down into the sump down the drive. The latter would explain the good performance and the former would only need to be supplying a small amount extra to cause the plug to go from brown to black. May be worth a compression test as well.

Stuart.

 

Thanks Stuart,

 

Do you think i should carry out a compression test prior to removing sump and messing with the bearings?

 

I can put new oil in take her for a short spin and do the test. I have a test , something i was going to do at some point. Then i would know if there was a fault with the pistons.

 

Hadnt thought of the metering unit seals, actually not sure where they are, will look at my manuals. So if petrol was coming down drive, when i have sump off, i could switch on pump and i would see the fuel dropping in ?

 

Thanks For your input.

 

Guy

Edited November 9, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[Richard Crawley]

when checking the thrust bearings it is the REAR one that wears away.

richard.

OK, one wears more than the other; couldn't remember which & just assumed Chris was right. As always assumptions can be dangerious!

[Maurice Berlage]

the crank went that way?

or it trys to when you push it with the clutch.or the propeller on the front if you still have one.

definatley the rear one that gets all the stick.set up with std ones and go from there.

richard

 

This is indeed correct. (my apologies for the confusion; there's two Richards in this thread )

[stuart]

Thanks Stuart,

 

Do you think i should carry out a compression test prior to removing sump and messing with the bearings?

 

I can put new oil in take her for a short spin and do the test. I have a test , something i was going to do at some point. Then i would know if there was a fault with the pistons.

 

Hadnt thought of the metering unit seals, actually not sure where they are, will look at my manuals. So if petrol was coming down drive, when i have sump off, i could switch on pump and i would see the fuel dropping in ?

 

Thanks For your input.

 

Guy

Guy the compression test is done just on a 10/15 second spin of the engine on the starter motor. If the drive seal is leaking it would mostly be doing it when running.

Stuart.

[Richard Crawley]

Guy the compression test is done just on a 10/15 second spin of the engine on the starter motor. If the drive seal is leaking it would mostly be doing it when running.

Stuart.

Just to add to Stuarts post; you don’t need to re-fill the engine with oil or run it up, just remove all the plugs & test each cylinder in turn on the starter. You looking for equal pressures, ideally with a pressure difference of no more than 5lb but a little more is acceptable; the measured pressures on my new engine were all between 165 & 168 lbs. To tell if pressure loss is down to the cylinder or the head, squirt some engine oil into the suspect cylinder, if it stays more or less the same it’s the valves, if it shoots up it’s a ring/piston problem.

 

Re possible leaking seal; there are actually 2 seals back to back in the distributor pedestal but if the first one goes, petrol should show itself via a tell tale hole between the seals before it has a chance of getting into the sump; the hole is located in the pedestal so check it’s clear with a piece of wire; check if you get any leaks when spinning the engine with the plugs out & fuel pump running. They seals are easy to replace though so it may be worth doing them anyway.

[Jersey Royal]

Thanks Staurt and Richard

 

 

Heres the compression figures. Mileage is 89000 Still on leaded head.

 

192 psi Cylinder1

 

200

 

192

 

198

 

187

 

205 Cylinder 6

 

 

So is this bad, will re read your post Richard.

 

Thanks

 

Guy

Edited November 10, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[jean]

Guy, as far as I remember the general opinion is that a 10% difference is the max acceptable between the cylinders. You probably know that the compression tests have to be executed with throttle fully open

Edited November 10, 2007 by jean

[Jersey Royal]

Guy, as far as I remember the general opinion is that a 10% difference is the max acceptable between the cylinders. You probably know that the compression tests have to be executed with throttle fully open

 

Hi Jean,

 

The first readings were taken with the fuel sytem disabled, i pulled one plug at a time tested, plug back in and next one out and test etc, oh and did not have throittle fully open, justy tiurned it over for ten seconds.

 

 

So i have re tested with all plugs out, fuel system disabled and throttle open and this is what i get

Dry Wet

212 260

225 250

212 265

220 250

200 248

225 270

 

So does this mean piston rings are worn?

 

Engine cold and in both cases

 

 

Or have i messed up again

 

 

Richard have looked for the hole in the pedistal, cant find it.

 

Regards

 

Guy

Edited November 10, 2007 by Jersey Royal

[Richard Crawley]

Them’s pretty high readings Guy! They normally range between 150 -170, what sort of test gauge do you have? Is it accurate? Although it probably doesn’t matter too much; I assume ‘wet’ is with a squirt of oil in the cylinder?

 

I would say 10% differential is the absolute max. &, for me, would be an indicator to have a look see what’s going on in the not to distant future before things deteriorated too far.

 

You’ve taken 3 sets of readings & I have been spending some time analysing what they might mean, here are my thoughts:

 

Number 5 seems to have a little problem in my view at around 9% & if you ignore this cylinder, the rest of the readings are within 6% which for a motor with 90k on the clock is pretty good. Interestingly the oil in the bore trick doesn’t make a tremendous difference or stand out when compared to the effect on the other cylinders.

 

So (sticking my neck out here); I don’t think you have any serious problems & I suspect it may be just a case of the valves letting by a bit (assume the tappets are adjusted OK). I would have a look at the head, lap the valves & do a retest to see if the readings then equalise; if they do, you’re home & dry. Trouble if it’s not converted to U/L you will loose any lead memory you may currently have & I’m not sure what you do by way of additives; I bit the bullet & had a U/L conversion & added a stage 2 tune for good measure!

 

The tell tale hole in the pedestal is on the underside next to the fuel distributor; if you have a look in the BL manual page 12:10:24 (sheet 2), it shows exactly where it is.