roulli
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Posts posted by roulli
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I'm using the OE Triumph exhaust manifold. But I'll check its straightness with a ruler.
I do have 2 Payens JA510 in the drawer for some time. But I haven't used them just because of the fire rings, which are basically a good idea... but I've always been trying to make sure that manifolds, head runners and the gasket in-between mate without a "step". This requires that the gasket needs to be trimmed.
If one pays attention, the gasket will protrude a few mm into the "flow channel" , which is not so optimal in terms of blue printing the engine.
This trimming is not going to work on the JA510, as the fire rings will fall off and it cannot work as intended.
Patrick
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Hi Tom,
the question isn't stupid at all. I sincerely don't recall whether I checked the tightness of the nuts after 500-100mls, but I re-tightened them eventually a few times.
I will be looking into the studs and bronze-nuts, a few of them are "bond" together and its the stud that screws out of the head... But its not that the nut is completely blocked, it's just that the friction is lower in the head-thread.
But generally talking I'm amazed on how brittle the HP gasket has become. However the part under the inlet manifolds is much less brittle, than the parts that suffered from the exhaust heat.
The question is then, if the manifold gasket failure is always due to non-tight fasteners, then a std cheapo gasket might do the same job and I shouldn't look for the best gasket, but for the most robust way over time to get the manifolds bolted firmly .
Spring washer don't seem to work well under this hot conditions. I used new ones they loose spring force easily
I wonder how robustness in this area has become inherent in modern cars - it can't be rocket science..
--> I replaced recently the particle filter on our daily driver and Volvo use self-locking nuts on the the flanges of the filter - not the nyloc type of cours but the one with the oval end.
Should I replace the bronze nuts with steel nuts and use copper grease on threads. The bronze nuts get compressed / deformed, where they mate with the spring washers
Regards
Patrick
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Hi,
I'm digging out this old topic, as I was searching for info about the best available manifold gasket for the 6, and I completely forgot that I had the same need already in 2017.
So 3 years after I've fitted a "high performance" gasket from Moss. NowI ended up with a noisy exhaust gas leak under the bonnet.
The result is impressive. The gasket became totally brittle and crumbled to pieces, when I tried to remove it.
So at the end one can choose between:
- The so called "high performance" which is done after 3 years
- The cheapo 5£ cr...p that is even worse
- And the flimpsy Payen, which can't be trimmed due the fire rings.
Patrick
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Hi Jochem,
40mm Jenveys should be enough for a street car, as most streetcars on DCOEs are 40mm and they are restricted by the venturies, which isn't the case on a comparable EFI throttle body.
They need also to fit the Weber inlet manifold, which are often for 40mm carbs, thus 40mm Jenveys. Could possibly open them up to 42mm though...
The original PI manifolds were 45mm, which is rather big for a 2,5l. But it works, obviously.
I use original PI manifolds with 6 butterflies on EFI and put some effort into the linkage to make the butterflies open progressively, in order to tame everything at small throttle openings.
Cheers,
Patrick
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Hi Jochem,
I had a similar bad experience as Andreas, with my new bushed rockers from Moss.
I got the tips even laser hardened in your home country. But the material of these Moss rockers was so crappy, that the hardened surface kind of peeled off after e few miles of usage...
Eventually I ended up with the HS rockers.
I bought them from a US dealer who offered them machined to fit directly on the TR6. which means that some rockers were already machined on the side, so they aligned exactly to the the middle of the valve tip.
The HS is not a plug and play solution as the Goodparts, and I used exactly the same instructions as the ones you posted above, to bring the rolers into the correct height.
For the Newman cam I had to skim off the pedestals.
2 Years later, I swapped the Newman cam against a WBC cam, with higher lift, and I had to use shims to bring the rockers into a higher position.
It's a bit of work, but it can easily be done by a home mechanic, who has time.
Patrick
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Hi Spyder Dryver,
i read this thread only now, but I'm at the verge of switching my MS2/ Extra final release from batch to Semi-sequential injector firing - on my TR6.
What engine did you experience this timing to work best?
I'm trying to understand, why the Triumph prefers injection into an open Inlet valve.
Unfortunately semi- seq. will always have 1/2 of the fuel injected at the wrong time.
With my BiL's stock but blue-printed VW Porsche 914 it made a huge difference when he switched from batch to semi. seq injection. But then this engine is just the opposite of a TR6 engine (Big pistons, big valves).
That was my motivation to alter my MS2 to allow semi-seq inj. on a 6 cyl.
Patrick
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Patrick,
You got figures of Zn and P from Rektol, around 1000-1200 ppm. That sounds good to me.
If the oil pressure looks good I would still use 20-50 in a road car.We can only drive hard for short periods and then the oil will cool off again !
Or do you drive the autobahns at sustained high speeds ?
Peter
Peter,
Sustained speeds at highway in my case is between 3000 and 4000 rpm, more like 3500
I'd like to drive into the Alps one day and drive up the passes...
Patrick
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Edit: This post was written in parallel to Mick's post...Nr 83
Peter,
so at the end there is no classic oil manufacturer who states correct mass of ZN / P (not the complete molecule), appart Penrite -Down-under.
The European Penrite spec does not state ppm either does it.
I found Rektol in D, who make classic oils in many different viscosities.
https://www.rektol-klassik.de/index.php?language=en
When I asked them about Zn and P they came up with a table where the differet oil specs vary between 1000 and 1200 ppm in Zn and P mass
And we ended up in a discussion, where it turned out, that viscosity of an oil is very important and that it is difficult to say, which was the right viscosity for a modified engine, without oil cooler and without knowledge about the oil temperature - which is the case for my TR6.
So I will monitor the oil temp. next season with an infrared gun on the black oil-pan, since i don't have a bung in the oil pan to put in a sender.
Patrick
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Hi,
I asked Millers and had some friendly answers, but I kept on insisting for specific relative masses of Zn and / or P .
In the last email I was told:
" Yes the ZDDP Molecule consists of Zinc and Phosphorus with the Phosphorus part giving the protective function and providing a phosphate coating on the engine components, therefore the quoted PPM ( Parts PerMillion ) figure of ZDDP does determine the amount of protection.
Our Classic Engine Oils have sufficient ZDDP to protect each engine.
If the ZDDP for example 1100 ppm then the % mass is 0.110 of the complete oil."Patrick
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I do have CV axles and modern hubs for some years and would never look back to the original construction due to the inherent flaws of the key layout and the effect it may have on the durability, when things go wrong during assembly.
I'm well aware that a TR does not have the passive safety of a modern car.
I can encounter that fact with driving more carefully and defensively. But the fact to loose a rear wheel at any time is not acceptable for me personally.
Having said that I fully agree that it is also not acceptable, when you pay such a high amount for CV axles, that there is play between the half shaft splines and the inner cage of the CV joints, which results in clunks, when you do not release the clutch like mother's in law darling.
I tried with bonding them with a special Loctite kind of stuff (it wasn't from Loctite, but from ebay.uk and of course much cheaaper than the original Loctite) This bonder did not cure really and thus didn't help.
After that, I received another pair of half shafts from the dealer, which he had I think nickel plated in the splines, after he found out that the axle supplier rolled the splines smaller than he would have to, so to mate the female splines in the cage. This improved things, but did not cure it completely.
So the question is, before throwing things into the bin, has anyone tried to get the splines nickel plated to mate the female splines, with close to 0 play?
Cheers,
Patrick
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The main thing we are missing is the fuel return back to the tank. That needs to be added when converting a US spec car to the Lucas PI system anyway.
Stan
Not really Stan,
I'm using an original fuel tank for US- market for EFI, and it works perfectly:
standard small output on the bottom of tank
via carburetor-type pre-filter
into pre-pump (Hüco), that was previously used, when the car was Webered
pre-pump into swirl-pot
big output on swirl-pot into Bosch HP pump (the smallest one I could find with more than 100l/min) and more than 4 bar)
into HP filter
to the fuel-rail
back via second fuel pipe to the swirl-pot
swirl-pot overflow to the "breathing stub" on top of the fuel tank, which exits the big pipe where you fill the fuel into the tank.
this "breather stub" was before just fitted with a piece of fuel hose that was hanging out of one of the holes in the deck floor. It appeared useless to me as the fuel cap is vented
Patrick
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Ouch!
Did it happen on the V8?
Cheers
Patrick
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Hi,
here's a bar from Safety Devices, where the front points are fixed to the floor, right behind the wheel arch, instead to the deck.
This design should be strurdier, than 4 points to the deck.
The negative side is, the seat may not slide against the wheel arch.
(They have also got a dealer in New Jersey...)
Has anybody experience with this roll over bar from Safety Devices?
Patrick
http://www.safetydevices.com/motorsport/products/roll-cage/Triumph+TR6+-1969-1976-2-door/23/881/
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Derek,
Weller wheels do have currently an online shop, where one may buy 1 wheel.
But they ask 160,-£ shipping costs to send one set to Europe. That's a bit insane.
Did you finally buy a set from Moss, and do they run true?
Patrick
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@Austin,
I took my rims to a "reshaper" here in Luxembourg, prior refurbishing them some years ago. They said they couldn't get the shape right...
Probably not the best shop for that...
@ Peter
thanks a lot for that link. I didn't know these rims were remanufactured in UK. That's a good starting point.
I would still be interested to hear someones feedback about these specific wheels.
I will contact Wellerwheels.
Cheers
Patrick
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Hi,
the OE steel wheels of my TR6 are a bit out of round and generate unpleasant vibrations in the steering between 70 and 75 mph and above 95 mph.
I like the period looks of the steelies and am reluctant to change to Minilite's.
So I am looking into the 6" repros offered by Moss etc?
Question:
Is quality ok, or do they go together with the usual repro crap, manufactured in a low cost country but sold at a premium price, and finally performing worse than 45 year old worn out OE parts?
Thanks for sharing your experience
Patrick
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Thanks NIgel, Tom and John,
I'm actually using a self made tool, to align the 3 manifolds, by means of fixing their inlet stubs between 2 stiff metal bars, prior tightening the bolts to the head.
- The manifolds have also been converted to sealed ball-bearings on the lever side.
- throttle plate bolts released and centered the throttle plates.
- sealed the throttle plates with Molycote
- using PU hoses from Revington between the balance tubes - without circlips though
But I still could only tame the idle by reducing advance at idle.
And I'm having a hard time to locate any leak with "Start Pilot" gas. Idle does hardly change, when I spray it into a manifold...
So I wanted to concentrate more on the usual suspects: gasket and servo (rather new)
So you mount your favorite gasket dry, then?
Patrick
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Good evening,
what is the best manifold gasket to reduce the risk of a vacuum leak around the PI manifolds?
- Payen gasket (tin on manifold side with fibre on the other side) looks rather thin to me? I have two of those in the drawer , one has some heavy rust spots...
- Moss, have an upgraded one, in the colored part of their catalogue. Are they really better?
- any other gasket?
- Should I smear some sealant to the manifold side, or is it too hot?
Thanks for sharing your experience
Best,
Patrick
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Hi Andreas,
What did you experience, after the elongation of the inlet length? Is it noticeable, as your engine is supposed to have already a lot of torque at low rpms?
The increase of the plenum diameter might also be an interesting improvement. Unfortunately on can only do on at the same time, as the fender come int the way.
https://mytriumphblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/modified-enlarged-plenum_2.jpg
Cheers,
Patrick
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I run a TR6 with Lucas PI.
I use a Newman cam, which is a hybrid cam, and understand it is similar in spec to that of a Piper Yellow cam. Mine came direct fron Newman with steel followers. X 4 tracks later, a 10 Countries run, and general hard driving over the last two years, and do far so good. Cam is lovely and quiet and has power from idle and will rev to the end of red line.
Will advise results of RR once I have re-visited.
Cheers.
Can you be a bit more precise about the " hybrid cam from Newman"?
I know their camshaft types PH1 (260°), PH2 (280°) etc.
I run a PH1 cam on Webers for + 10000km without any problems.
Cheers,
Patrick
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Hi Martti,
If you want to measure the caster in the vice, you need to do it together with the respective vertical link.
I used a water-level and trigonometrics and my new vertical links and trunnions do have 3° caster.
First check, if the vice is leveled, by fixing the water-level alone into the vice. You want to use this to correct your measurement later, when you measure the caster with the vertical-link.
Also, the first think that gets bended if the wheel impacts strongly is the vertical link, so that might explain as well you differences in caster l&r
Cheers,
Patrick
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Hi Toni,
Have you tried allready if the the "clonks" are gone, now after you have shimmed the mounts?
Regards
Patrick
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Patrick,
I wont admit to being an expert with MU's etc, but the higher the vacuum seen at the MU, the less fuel is delivered (highest vacuum is seen when throttle bodies are shut)
So with a (small) leak in my cars vacuum system, I set the new MU to deliver the correct (3.5%) CO at idle.
When the vacuum leak was fixed, this caused the vacuum to increase slightly, and therefore the MU delivered LESS fuel, making the engine run lean (plugs were white) across the total rev range.
A slight re-adjustment of the MU saw the idle CO go from <2.5% back up to ~3.5%.
Just remembered I had a good link in my bookmarks ..
http://t2000.kvaleberg.org/t_pi.html
scroll down to the TR6 PI cam tables. You can see the stages of vacuum vs fuel delivery.
Hope it makes sense.
Andrew
Andrew,
thanks for your explanation. That makes perfect sense to me. The regulating impact of the vacuum on the MU is probably of higher impact, than the fact that you got rid of the air leak.
I was in deed trying to suck a vacuum into the servo, but the resistance stayed constant. I could suck for a minute and the resistance did not increase.
So I assume that I do as well have a (small) leak, or at the anti return valve or at the membrane.
Also, when I push the brake pedal with constant effort, while the engine is running and stop the engine, then I feel within 1-2 seconds how the servo effect goes away and the pedal pushes my foot back.
I think I'll better buy a new brake servo then.
Cheers,
Patrick
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Hi Andrew,
I was searching for "servo leaks" and found this thread:
What I don't understand is, when the MU was set up with an unknown leak, then it should run richer, after the leak is removed, as the additional amount of air sucked in by the engine is gone.
Or , am I misunderstanding sth.? (Unfortunately I have Webers, not (yet) injection.)
Thanks for clearing up.
Best Regards,
Patrick
Best manifold gasket for PI
in TR6 Forum
Posted
Tom,
here's the link to the Bastuck gasket:
https://shop.bastuck2.de/index.php?cat=10000&hg=11800
product code is: MD9TR6
https://www.bastuck.de/gb/classic/triumph/
But if you like the Heavy Duty one from Moss, Moss Europe sell them, I received one this week...
FInally I had a look at the Payen JA510, that was lying around for years and the fitting was not so bad. Not really a need to trim
So i ended up fitting this flimsy gasket, where I still wonder how such a thin gasket can deliver a good seal. But if so many people are contented with it, plus Payen normally know what they're doing... then it should actually work.
Couldn't help to smear some Dirko sealing compound around the runners of the PI inlet manifolds to avoid air leaks. I'll also check for re-torquing more regularly...
Thanks for all the advice
Patrick