ashuici Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 I need some help about the ignition timing. My car is a 1973 TR6 PI frame number 1.CR.316.L with original Lucas fuel injection and Lucas 41501A distributor. According with the Haynes manual the settings wold be: static 11º BTDC, and at 4.000 rpm 6 to 8 degrees on distributor equivalent to 12 to 16 degrees in crankshaft, so maximal advance would be 23 to 27 (12+11 to 16+11) degrees on the crank. However, the arm located in the distributor is marked 14º, that means 28º in the crank and 39º (28+11) total advance. This last is more or less that I can read using my strobe ligth. Wich is wrong? What is the correct timing using stroboscopic gun? Thank you in advance and sorry for my english. Alfonso. Spain. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 I need some help about the ignition timing. My car is a 1973 TR6 PI frame number 1.CR.316.L with original Lucas fuel injection and Lucas 41501A distributor. According with the Haynes manual the settings wold be: static 11º BTDC, and at 4.000 rpm 6 to 8 degrees on distributor equivalent to 12 to 16 degrees in crankshaft, so maximal advance would be 23 to 27 (12+11 to 16+11) degrees on the crank. However, the arm located in the distributor is marked 14º, that means 28º in the crank and 39º (28+11) total advance. This last is more or less that I can read using my strobe ligth. Wich is wrong? What is the correct timing using stroboscopic gun? Thank you in advance and sorry for my english. Alfonso. Spain. Hi Alfonso and welcome to the forum. When you say that the arm located in the distributor is marked 14 degrees what are you referring to ?. I could be wrong and I'm sure someone will soon correct me if I am but the rotor arm doesnt really play a role in the advance and I have only ever seen them stamped with a 4 or a 6 to designate the 4 or 6 cyl engines or with a simple arrow to indicate the direction of rotation. The base plate rotation governed by the centrifugal weights and springs define the mechanical advance characteristics together with whatever static advance you configured plus any vacuum advance. Total advance of 28 degrees at 4000 rpm doesnt sound way off to me but 39 degrees of advance seems like a lot.. Is that what you are seeing with the strobe at 4k rpm ? Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Collins Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 Hi Alfonso, I believe you are referring to the cam under the contact plate, this is taken from a Lucas distributor document by TDC which I hope is attached. This is the area of focus for this document. After removing the breaker plate you will see: · The cam with a stamped maximum mechanical advance figure · Two small springs, the primary spring being the smaller, or weaker of the two. My CP series has a 7 degree cam, not sure what the figure is for CR but it should be published somewhere. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ashuici Posted July 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 Mike, you are rigth, this is the arm wich limit the máximun advance. In my case is stamped 14, so I understand it is the total centrifugal advance in the distributor. This means that the advance in the crankshaft is 28 degrees (just the double). If I set the static advance at 11º, the result will be 28+11=39, more or less the same reading I can see with my strobe ligth. This means to be too much advance for this engine and, in any case is a lot different to the data in the Haynes manual. I have dismantled the distributor and everything is OK, without any wear. I am the second owner, so I´m not sure about the possibility of changes in the past, however, all seems to be original, there is not any vacuum in the distributor but the vernier advance adjustement is present working OK. In my search trough internet I only have found a lot of confussion about this theme. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolboy Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 Once an engine has gotten as old as most of ours, I just don't trust the timing marks on the damper to reflect the true ignition timing. The timing chain has stetched, the chain sprockets have worn along with the distributor drive gear set. And even the rubber bond in the damper can give. Whereas the manifold vacuum will indicate the efficiency of combustion. This seems to be a better way of finding the sweet spot followed by a few test drives. http://automotivemileposts.com/garage/v2n8.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ashuici Posted July 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 Once an engine has gotten as old as most of ours, I just don't trust the timing marks on the damper to reflect the true ignition timing. The timing chain has stetched, the chain sprockets have worn along with the distributor drive gear set. And even the rubber bond in the damper can give. Whereas the manifold vacuum will indicate the efficiency of combustion. This seems to be a better way of finding the sweet spot followed by a few test drives. http://automotivemileposts.com/garage/v2n8.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ashuici Posted July 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 Poolboy, thank you for your information, in any case this procedure don´t resolve the advance curve problem, also this is for carburetors models, mine is the Lucas injection one. I think would be better stablish the original settings as a start point and after this, make the adecuate corrections according with the age, wear and other factors, like fuel, tuning, etc. This is the reason I´m very interested in knowing the static advance setting (I suppose 11º), and the differents advance readings I have to obtain at 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 rpm with the srobe gun, at last, the exact advance curve for this model. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolboy Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 (edited) If you have vacuum for a brake servo, you can use the Vacuum Gauge. Using a strobe assumes that the timing marks are still accurate. I can understand your wanting to know how much the timing advances at the speeds you indicated, but there is no way for you to make adjustments at those intervals. All that is accomplished with centrifugal advance weights and possibly a Vacuum advane, if so equiped, while the engine is running and changing speed. Once the weights and the spring tension on the weights are set, it's out of your control as far as making continuous adjustments. Your best bet is to have the distributor "recurved" according to your engine modifications and driving habits, then set the initial timing with a Vacuum gauge with the engine running at idle speed. Edited July 23, 2010 by poolboy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolboy Posted July 26, 2010 Report Share Posted July 26, 2010 You may find this interesting: http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/lucastuning.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ashuici Posted August 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 Thanks to everybody, but, the only think I want to know is the correct and original advance curve for this model (1973 Triumph TR6 PI) = grades of advance at 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 RPM. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted August 6, 2010 Report Share Posted August 6, 2010 Alphonso, The Bentley Manual doesn't list your distributor number nor any other for the later P.I. engines. For the early P.I. engines they are 7 degree type, allowing maximum of 14-16 degrees of [ distributor ] advance. Other models for carbureted cars have 10 or 13 degree weights. In my experience ( over 100,000 miles in carbureted U.S. spec cars ) + 88,000 miles in 150+ BHP cars on Webers the tendency for the higher advance distributors is to give too much advance, particularly with vacuum assist. You may not have the original distributor for the engine - others on this forum should know the right spec however. If I can suggest, why not back off the static setting so as to keep the maximum advance under 30 degrees and see how you like it? Your idle quality will actually improve and excess advance is unlikely. I have found these engines will run well with less than optimum advance curves. For an optimum curve you can have a UK specialist rebuild a distributor to your requirements. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ashuici Posted August 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 Tom, I will try with 30 degrees of total advance. I´ll tell you something... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OldBob Posted August 9, 2010 Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 Alphonso, maybe the attached file is of use: it lists your dizzy number as the same unit as fitted to a TR250. I think the CR car with PI has a Lucas 41542 with 12 degrees max advance (or 24 when doubled). As to your request for the advance settings at rev intervals of 1000, the weight is fully out by 4000 so thats the limit of advance, anything faster is the setting same as 4000. If the advance springs are worn, the weight could be fully out at much lower revs which will advance the ignition too early - maybe get a new spring set or better still get it checked by a dizzy specialist. You need to know which camshaft is fitted to do this properly, the CR & CP is different hence the different ignition timing settings - some manuals I've seen only show the CP car setting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Phoenix-1 Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 ASHUICI, (Alphonso), Pi Cr1 -2845 used 41501,- according to Rimmer Bros UK. But this is aslo mentioned as for TR250!! (carbs) OLDBOB is also correct on that,but,- Various numbers are generic to the series engines, if 'A' or 'B' means either carb or Pi, I do not know. (It can also mean with or without a vac'.) But the degrees on the cam plate should be low for Pi. The other dissys are 41542,- yes this is,- from Cr 2846, and 41219 ,- is upto CR1 !! CR is 1973 -75. 125 bhp camshaft, 18/58-58/18 Hope this helps. Nick,UK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rien Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 Hello Alphonso, The OE BL Handbook with partnumber 545078 2nd edition says 4.5 dec BTDC. And yes you have the correct distributor with 14 dec max. I do not have the curve for this, sorry Good luck, Rien Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 I'd go for a maximum advance of 30-32 degrees at say 4000rpm. If it pinks it may well be that the springs have gone a little slack and allowing it to advince too early - in which case retard a little until it stops pinking or get the dizzy rebuilt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rien Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Good idee to rebuild the dizzy when worn but how if you don't have the correct advance curve! Do anyone have them for a CR with the 41501A ? My advice? thake a 123Ignition, then you have all new and many advantage more! Rien Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Good idee to rebuild the dizzy when worn but how if you don't have the correct advance curve! Do anyone have them for a CR with the 41501A ? My advice? thake a 123Ignition, then you have all new and many advantage more! Rien Talk to Martin http://www.distributordoctor.com/ he will give you chapter and verse on them. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Buy a good quality timing light with advance dial in and it will tell you all you need to know.simples Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rien Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 No Neil sorry but that tell you the actual curve with probably tired springs! Rien Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Exactly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Agile Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) Google search brings me to the same Forum After having solved a basic issue with fuel pressure and failing injectors - as newbee - now moving to the next step in getting my TR6PI ('74) engine to run better. Idling (when warm) is not too bad, higher revs is OK but city cruising (e.g. between 1500 - 2500 RPM is not smooth yet. There is also a small 'dip' when accelerating full throttle. This has brought me to two focus areas (again from reading this forum!): 1) butterfly closure and synchro 2) ignition timing. (according to the previous owner engine and MU have been done less than 1000 km ago (but also several years ago as this TR6PI has not been used during the last 5...10 years I'de guess) This post is about (2). Realizing that my current distributor (dizzy?) is likely the original one (marked 22D on top and 41542 B 07 74 on the side, see picture) as it has "74" stamped on it. It would guess the springs are out of spec by now. I have set the dynamic advantage to ~5 degrees at some ~700 RPM (using a basic stroboscopic tool). haven't checked what it is at 4000 rpm yet, but based on previous posts it should be 5+(2x14) = 33. Would this be totally off? As I'm based in the same town as does 123-ignition-conversions I'm seriously considering to upgrade to this electronic solution. Questions: - What *should* the ignition curve be for this TR6PI (e.g. same Q as original post) as the 'TR6 brown book' does not mention this distributor - Which of the 16 selectable 123-ignition advance curve settings fits best? (curve #6 is recommended) - As newbee I understand why you need to advance ignition with RPM, but I'm not sure what the positive/negative impact of good/wrong ignition advantage is (except for predetonation (pinking?)). What should I aim for (I basically want the engine to run like a charm)? - is it correct that the vacuum advance is *not* used for this TR6PI? and.... - anyone has a TR6-any-model-with-rev-counter distributor for sale? (want to keep mine) Thanks, W. Edited June 16, 2012 by Agile Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rien Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Hi Agile, If you like I have a (US spec) distributor for you, but I recommend a 123Tune and a to electronic driven modificated rev counter, I can help with both. Cheers, Rien Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saffrontr Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 Agile, The original settings for the 41542 distributor according to the Truimph Repair Operation Manual are static 11 degree BTDC, 0 degrees crankshaft advance at 700 RPM, 0-1.5 degrees advance at 1000 RPM, 0.5 - 3.0 at 1200 RPM, 3.5 - 6.0 at 1600 RPM and 8 -10 at 2200 RPM. For the original poster who had a 41502 distributor the settings are static11 degrees BTDC, 0 degrees at 600 RPM, 0-1 at 800 RPM, 2.5 - 4.5 at 1200 RPM, 6-8 at 1600 RPM, 13-15 at 2400 RPM. Hope that this helps cheers Derek Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rien Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 Agile, The original settings for the 41542 distributor according to the Truimph Repair Operation Manual are static 11 degree BTDC, 0 degrees crankshaft advance at 700 RPM, 0-1.5 degrees advance at 1000 RPM, 0.5 - 3.0 at 1200 RPM, 3.5 - 6.0 at 1600 RPM and 8 -10 at 2200 RPM. For the original poster who had a 41502 distributor the settings are static11 degrees BTDC, 0 degrees at 600 RPM, 0-1 at 800 RPM, 2.5 - 4.5 at 1200 RPM, 6-8 at 1600 RPM, 13-15 at 2400 RPM. Hope that this helps cheers Derek Hello Derek,Do you have the publication/partnumber from the 'Truimph Repair Operation Manual' or a copy of the pages that contain this spec's? Thanks, Rien Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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