silverfox4 Posted January 22, 2018 Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 Hi All, Clutch removed from 4A as part of full rebuild. The ToB is curved so not an RHP bearing? Thanks,Alf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 22, 2018 Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 Hi Alf, what do you mean - The ToB is curved so not an RHP bearing. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 22, 2018 Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 It's the original 1960s diaphragm chassis, as in more knobbly than the smooth circular curve of the chassis that came in during the 1970s, and the stamped company lettering style also suggests 1960s. Friction plate looks more like 1960s than 70s material too, but it may have been relined at some later stage with an old lining. No, I don't understand "The ToB is curved so not an RHP bearing? " Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted January 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 HI Roger, The running/contact surface of the TOB is curved as opposed to flat which is what I understand the RHP bearing is. As you can see the diaphragm springs have a clear witness wear groove, but it seems narrower than what the ToB would impart, but I don't know - there seems to be a lot of "chatter" on the Web about make of PP (Sachs, LUK, B&B etc)and compatibility between PP and ToB's (RHP, Gunst, Koyo). Unfortunately the TOB is still attached to the G/Box, so I can't get a picture. Not sure if that helps.... Cheers, Alf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 22, 2018 Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 Flat faced ToB is used with a spring type clutch fitted to a TR2-3-4 - Curved face is for diaphragm on TR4A/250/5/6 etc Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 22, 2018 Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 Penny drops, throw out bearing . . . . . the RHP 14W 2 1/16 was standard fitment, and as Peter observes it has a curved face like all the diaphragm bearings I can recall. TR transmissions do seem to have generated a lot of internet discussion over the years, but I'm afraid that too much of the stuff I've read from North America strikes me as utter tosh, to put it politely, and clutches are perhaps the most controversial topic. In my experience, if you assemble a TR clutch system correctly then it just works and stays that way an awful long time, providing you drive the car competently, that is. Regardless of which manufacturer. Presumably some of the online transmission obsessives might benefit from lessons in driving and/or spannering ? Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted January 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2018 Thx Alec, By any chance, could the old dear still have the original clutch then. I will pop over and try to get some pics of the ToB Cheers, Alf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 Hi Alec, No argument regarding the clutch web "noise" on this side and I may be caught up in it - at present I am trying to understand the set-up. I got some pics of the ToB, but not sure if it's the RHP 14W or not. The witness groove on the diaphragm fingers is 3 mm wide and 61 mm OD, which seems to correspond to the diameter of the sleeve and not any section of the ToB. I assume that the sleeve is not supposed to rotate. is this an style RHP ToB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 Looks about right for the RHP, and its denomination will be stamped on the reverse side of the bearing once you remove it. It may be a 60s clutch, they've been known to go 'round the clock' without issue . . . . Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 Hi Alf, that bearing looks correct for a diaphragm clutch. The wear groove on the fingers is caused by the curved surface of the bearing. The face of the bearing shows a shiny continuous ring which is the contact area when up against the fingers. I'm not sure why there is so much angst with these clutches but what I found three years ago was that the extension sleeve that the ToB slides on was not concentric with the splined GB input shaft - it was vertically out by 15 degrees. This produced a problem known as ratchet clutch - the pedal returns in a series of jumps. Not good. I made a tapered shim to fit under the extension sleeve to bring ot level. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 Certainly looks like either an original or replaced in period to me, I have known clutches go stratospheric miles if treated right and a proper original clutch will certainly do that. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 Whoever's foot was on the pedal of that clutch might well be able to teach a few things about driving to some of the commentators who seem to put so much effort into spouting online twaddle about Triumph transmissions . . . . . . Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 Whoever's foot was on the pedal of that clutch might well be able to teach a few things about driving to some of the commentators who seem to put so much effort into spouting online twaddle about Triumph transmissions . . . . . . Cheers Alec :lol: :lol: Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted January 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2018 Thanks All, There is but 96K Km in 50 years on the old dear and I just felt after the summer driving niggles, it was time for a teardown and check over. Amongst other things, It looks now like ToB failure was imminent. Close examination really shows that she is simply tired and worn out. Best news is that crank journals still good for new standard shells and valves good with reface and clean up. Even rear scroll crank seal working well(but to be upgraded now). Camshaft needs attention (or new),and the rest is routine stuff, but she will return refreshed and as bog standard as I can get... Back to topic - Consensus seems to be that a new kit is required. I am leaning towards the B&B kit #HK 9649 (lower clamping force than the HK 9665)and readily available this side, I do get confused on this, as I see other numbers for what appears to be the same kit or may be it's PP only e.g. GCC 228 and GCK 6004/GCK6005X. This choice I think would fly in the face of most NA preferences which is the TRF magic clutch as well as other suppliers with same component mix (Sachs PP, LuK disc, and KOYO ToB on Bronze carrier). Is this a yeah or a Nay? Cheers, Alf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted January 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2018 Hi Roger, What bothers me with the ToB is the that the inner race, (or is the brg carrier itself?), is sitting slightly proud of the curved running surface, so what are the chances that this could contact the fingers first and being possibly non-rotating component, it would cause the grinding. Of course I am working on the premise that the ToB only engages with purposeful pedal movement, and has to spin up to speed. There are views here that claim that new ToB's are too draggy and "chirp" as they try to get to speed - I'm sure you have heard it all. There are comments that the ToB should always be in contact with the diaphragm fingers and therefore continuously spinning - I personally have a real hard time with that view and cannot see the merit of a spinning ToB on a 500 Km drive for no purpose. The question is, which of the models is the prevailing topic discussion e.g t 4, 4A, 250, or 6, as they either have different PP's, clamping requirements, or hydraulics, so you may not be able to carry an issue from one model to another. When I get the ToB off I can have a closer look, Cheers Alf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted January 24, 2018 Report Share Posted January 24, 2018 Whoever's foot was on the pedal of that clutch might well be able to teach a few things about driving to some of the commentators who seem to put so much effort into spouting online twaddle about Triumph transmissions . . . . . . Cheers Alec I wonder how many longstanding members can remember the advice given to Len Bosshard when he complained he had gone through 3 clutches in as many months? Not too sure who it was giving the advice - could have been Pete Cox. AlanR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 24, 2018 Report Share Posted January 24, 2018 (edited) Hi Alf, three years ago my clutch started to give problems. Pedal release getting more 'jerky' buy the day. Changed slave cy, then master cy, fitted new bronze bearing carrier, re-profiled the edges of the carrier, fitted new bearing carrier slide extension. All to no avail. I noticed on the extension a wear mark at the 6 -o-clock position. Caused by the vertical displacement of the extension/gear shaft. However this is not your present problem. In resolving my issues I looked at ToB's etc and came to the conclusion that there are different qualities of the same bearing. Are there fake bearings out there!!!!! I ended up with an RHP that cost considerably more than the run of the mill RHP bearing and it has done a good 30,000 squeak free miles. It is/was very stiff initially but runs well https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/clutch-transmission-drivetrain/clutch-systems/clutch-drive-components-tr2-4a.html BBHD3269 The 4A diaphragm set-up does not have the TR4 return spring as the slave cy is self adjusting - the ToB does not stay in contact but is mighty close. Having said that I use the TR4 return spring and it works OK. The wear marks on your fingers are typical and very good for 90Km. Roger Edited January 24, 2018 by RogerH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted January 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2018 Hi Roger, That's interesting! I checked the Moss site, just to confirm, is the "high quality" BBHD 3269 an RHP brg as opposed to a B&B? and the other one (assume low quality") GRB 211 also RHP? By any chance do you have the corresponding RHP bearing numbers? It would help find a local source and compare to the TR4A Timken 2065 bearing. Thanks again, Alf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 24, 2018 Report Share Posted January 24, 2018 Hi Alf, I didn't know that B&B made bearings!! Don't know the RHP number. I'm sure you could get a cheap RHP bearing but don't hold me to that. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted January 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2018 Hi Roger, As you can tell my ignorance, while diminished some, has not totally subsided. As noted in post #14 above, one supplier I spoke to recommends the B&B kit p/n HK 9649 (in a B&B box)- he noted that the ToB in the kit is B&B, so that now is a clarifying question for him. I would go with your suggestion for the uprated RHP BBHD3269 (which I note, Revingtons have as GRB211HD) - probably the same bearing, just need to identify a local source. Thanks, Alf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted February 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2018 Hi All, I have now received the new B&B clutch kit HK9649 with the 400dN pressure (about 9 lb I figure), but the disc looks questionable not to mention the release bearing. I read on the clutch failure thread that 3-rivet discs are failure prone. Can anyone confirm whether this is a 3-rivet clutch and if so what are the options. The "no-name" release bearing easily be binned and upgraded, but what about the disc? The disc shown in my opening post also looked like a 3-rivet, but not sure as I don't know what that means. Alf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 12, 2018 Report Share Posted February 12, 2018 Thats not a 3 rivet one, that refers to the outer ring of rivets. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 12, 2018 Report Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) Hi Alf, the bearing is the correct shape for diaphragm clutch. If it was a quality (or even fake) RHP it would have RHP and some numbers on it somewhere. If it feels OK - smooth but necessarily free spinning due to the grease - then it may well work and have a long life. Do you want to take a chance on taking the GB out again. Roger Edited February 12, 2018 by RogerH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Priest Posted February 12, 2018 Report Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) IMG_2198.JPGIMG_2199.JPGIMG_2223.JPGIMG_2224.JPG Hi All, I have now received the new B&B clutch kit HK9649 with the 400dN pressure (about 9 lb I figure), but the disc looks questionable not to mention the release bearing. I read on the clutch failure thread that 3-rivet discs are failure prone. Can anyone confirm whether this is a 3-rivet clutch and if so what are the options. The "no-name" release bearing easily be binned and upgraded, but what about the disc? The disc shown in my opening post also looked like a 3-rivet, but not sure as I don't know what that means. Alf Hi Alf, The issue previously was a batch of clutch plates that only had 3 rivets attaching the central driven plate to the friction ring (yours has the usual 16). I think the three rivets in your photo attach the plate that holds the springs in place, which they all seem to have. I installed one of these modern B&B kits a few years ago (including the supplied bearing) and it's been trouble free. There's more info on the 3-rivet clutch plate here on page 8 of BrianC's Trunnion newletter: http://www.tr-register.co.uk/uploads/2016/04/16/Trunnion-20151_trweb.pdf Cheers, Steve Edit - Stuart beat me to it. Edited February 12, 2018 by Steve Priest Quote Link to post Share on other sites
silverfox4 Posted February 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 HI Stuart and Steve, thanks for the clarification and link, I believe I may have seen the pictures of BrianC's clutch failure elsewhere on the forum. The failure around the 3 inner rivets prompted my question, but all sorted so can install. HI Roger, to be honest still not sure whether to use this bearing or not. I may visit a friend and run it in a lathe and see how it behaves with some pressure imposed. May still look at the extra cost of getting the TRF Bronze carrier with Koyo bearing already fitted... bit of a dilemma - Maybe I have become paranoid Cheers, Alf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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