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Interesting.

 

They are saying 'optimised' ZDDP and it's rated at API SJ - way better than the Halfords/Comma/Wilkinsons stuff (API SE and with only 700ppm ZDDP)

Pray tell, what ZDDP numbers is the oil "optimised" at, the oil manufacturers never seem to want to tell...I wonder why ?

 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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Pray tell, what ZDDP numbers is the oil "optimised" at, the oil manufacturers never seem to want to tell...I wonder why ?

 

Mick Richards

 

Good question!

 

In my (very unscientific!) opinion something between 1000 - 1400 ppm is about right. More is probably counter-productive. In fact Duckhams seem to concur with Castrol in saying more than necessary is bad. Duckhams' FAQs on their new site mention the detrimental effects of too much, although they don't specify what too much is. I'd speculate that they are somewhere between the 1000 - 1400 ppm level in their new 20W/50. Castrol Classic used to be just under 1100 ppm when it was launched a few years back. They have reduced the content since that time to 800 ppm (although they have uprated the oil from API SE to API SF).

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Used to use Comma Classic until they sneakily reduced the zddp. Now using Lucas 20/50.

Would be nice if one could go back to Duckhams. Like to see some figures though, not just woffle.

 

Ivor

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Good question!

 

In my (very unscientific!) opinion something between 1000 - 1400 ppm is about right. More is probably counter-productive. In fact Duckhams seem to concur with Castrol in saying more than necessary is bad. Duckhams' FAQs on their new site mention the detrimental effects of too much, although they don't specify what too much is. I'd speculate that they are somewhere between the 1000 - 1400 ppm level in their new 20W/50. Castrol Classic used to be just under 1100 ppm when it was launched a few years back. They have reduced the content since that time to 800 ppm (although they have uprated the oil from API SE to API SF).

I'm with Ivor on this.

 

Can there REALLY be any scientific reason NOT to quote what the ZDDP is ?

 

I don't believe so, and having gone through a not dissimilar thread with Silkolene etc (check the search box) I'm just bored with oil manufacturers who WON'T say what their product ZDDP is.

They are hiding it because it may be that it doesn't have enough ZDDP...there said it, they rely on people who fondly remember the old Duckham product and pull the wool over their eyes by supplying an oil which may be short in ZDDP which our engines demand. Having scanned a myriad of other websites and also what Peter our resident Prof who is a demon for research and defining ingredients is ZDDP should be present between the 1100 and 1400 range. Any more than the 1400 and then you get into possible side effects which is why adding a supplement to oils ourselves is fraught with difficulty, the cost for the supplement makes it extortionate and unless the oil chosen has a confirmed ZDDP content you can't rely that adding a supplement to it could turn it into a witches brew for your engine.

I try not to reinvent the wheel, this 20w-50 oil by Classic Oils is very reasonably priced and 3 x 5 litre cans even with delivery comes out at just over £21 per 5 litre, ...oh and it's got ZDDP in the amount of 1300ppm,... it says it on the tin, how difficult is that.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Oils-5-Litre-Heritage-20W-50-High-Quality-Mineral-Oil-for-Classic-Cars-/252559237897?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275

 

Mick Richards

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I’m with Mick on this one, there is no reason, in my mind, to look past Classic Oils.... can’t see that altering unless they change the blend or get greedy with the price.

...... andy

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Yes, hard to understand why the secrecy over the ZDDP content and probably doing themselves out of sales as a result. Over here the local Elf importer produces their own classic 20W50 oil with a 1250ppm ZDDP content. I know exactly what I'm getting :)

 

Expert Retro 20W50.pdf

 

Gavin

NZ

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Where'd you pick it up from Gav?

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Can there REALLY be any scientific reason NOT to quote what the ZDDP is ?

 

I don't believe so, and having gone through a not dissimilar thread with Silkolene etc (check the search box) I'm just bored with oil manufacturers who WON'T say what their product ZDDP is.

......I try not to reinvent the wheel, this 20w-50 oil by Classic Oils is very reasonably priced and 3 x 5 litre cans even with delivery comes out at just over £21 per 5 litre, ...oh and it's got ZDDP in the amount of 1300ppm,... it says it on the tin, how difficult is that.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Oils-5-Litre-Heritage-20W-50-High-Quality-Mineral-Oil-for-Classic-Cars-/252559237897?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275

 

Mick Richards

 

I think I was a contributor to the Silkolene thread. I have an idea it was removed (or one of them was). I actually wondered if Classic Oils had asked for it to be removed because I had established that whilst they (Classic Oils) were claiming Silkolene was 1100ppm ZDDP, the technical manager at Fuchs (SIlkolene's parent) had told me over the phone it was "much less than that".

 

I agree the Classic Oils product looks like the perfect solution, always assuming they haven't exaggerated the ZDDP figure, as they (intentionally or otherwise) did with the Silkolene they were retailing.

 

I use Qualube Classic 20W/50 by Witham Oils. API SJ, 1200 ppm ZDDP, just under 20 quid for 5 lt. And it's green. They are an old established company and refine their own oils and frankly I wouldn't be at all surprised if the new Duckhams was exactly the same stuff (pure conjecture on my part). They also do a 20W/60 and an oil for classic Minis.

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"I wouldn't be at all surprised if the new Duckhams was exactly the same stuff (pure conjecture on my part)."

 

Slightly naughty that Steve, there are readers on this forum who will now lodge that in their minds as being a truth (even though you admit to it being a guess on your behalf).

Just as some now may mistakenly think that Classic Oils exaggerate the ZDDP amount in their oils because they have mistakenly marketed the Silkolene products as being 1100 ppm ZDDP after the Technical manager for Fuchs who make it .admitted and told you that "it's ZDDP is much less than 1100 ppm".

Why would a Classic Oils exaggerate the ZDDP of a competitor Silkolene (whose product Classic Oils market in the retail market) into a range required by our sort of engines making it more of a competitor for Classic Oils own admittedly superior 1300ppm and cheaper product in the 20W-50 ? Doesn't make sense.

 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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I realise that some members don't assiduously check the search box for information on current threads that have been previously chatted over, try this previous thread to give you a run down on where the arguments on ZDDP levels in oils are coming from.

 

http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/62855-opie-oils-10-offer/

 

Mick Richards

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I think there's now another angle that we need to be aware of when reading labels on ZDDP concentration.

The 1100 to 1400 ppm Mick refers to in #8 is a measure of either the Zn or P concentration and NOT THE CONCENTRATION of ZDDP. Zn and P contribute roughly equally to the weight of the ZDDP molecule so which is used doesn't matter.

 

BUT a crafty seller wants to put a bigger ppm number on the label could easily use the mass of the whole ZDDP molecule. There are many different ZDDP molecular species varying in molecular mass from 400 to 2000.In any ZDDP molecule there are 1 Zinc and 2 Phosphorus with respective atomic weights of Zn=65 and P= 30. So if the whole ZDDP molecule weighs around 400, the Zn ( or P) contributes around 60-ish, or about 15%.

SO an oil with say 200ppm Zn ( rubbish for our engines) could be labelled as having 1400 ppm ZDPP. That "1400 ppm ZDDP" would be scientifically correct and legal labelling (as far as I know) But it is not the way the level has been expressed in the past which was as ppm Zn. You'd buy the 1400, yes? but not 200 ppm. Beware !!

 

WHAT to DO ? If the label says ZDDP as Zn ( or P) = 1100 to 1400 ppm region we are sure to be OK, and this is conventional labelling

If the label simply says ZDDP = 1100 to 1400 ppm ( or more!) we have no idea what the Zn or P content is, and the oil may be at least 7 times lower in ZDDP than we expect. That is b88ger all antiscuff. I would not buy that oil without supplier's lab (not a sales person) confirming the Zn or P ppm.

 

Apologies for the long-winded explanation - sometimes science does not reduce to commonsense explanations.

 

A lot of the posts above quoting ZDDP levels when what is actually meant is Zn or P ppm.

 

Peter

 

PS The recent report of a label stating 5000ppm alerted me to this label problem. If that were 5000ppm Zn then that's a extraordinarily high concentration that could damage bearig shells etc. BUT if it refers to 5000ppm ZDDP then the Zn is 15% of that or 700 ppm Not enough for us. Worse, if the ZDDP species were bigger the Zn could be even lower.

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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"I wouldn't be at all surprised if the new Duckhams was exactly the same stuff (pure conjecture on my part)."

 

Slightly naughty that Steve, there are readers on this forum who will now lodge that in their minds as being a truth (even though you admit to it being a guess on your behalf).

Just as some now may mistakenly think that Classic Oils exaggerate the ZDDP amount in their oils because they have mistakenly marketed the Silkolene products as being 1100 ppm ZDDP after the Technical manager for Fuchs who make it .admitted and told you that "it's ZDDP is much less than 1100 ppm".

Why would a Classic Oils exaggerate the ZDDP of a competitor Silkolene (whose product Classic Oils market in the retail market) into a range required by our sort of engines making it more of a competitor for Classic Oils own admittedly superior 1300ppm and cheaper product in the 20W-50 ? Doesn't make sense.

 

Mick Richards

 

You think I'm being naughty by speculating?! Do you think I have something to gain by trying to enhance the perception of the Duckhams product or by denigrating Classic Oils?

 

I merely asked myself how many refineries would be making a 20W/50 mineral oil these days that is dyed green...we know the Duckhams isn't the same as the Halfords/Comma stuff because it's additive package is far more advanced. The Duckhams is rated the same as the Witham oil (which is green) so I am speculating it might be the same. I would maintain it is neither an illogical or unlikely explanation.

 

You'd have to address your other question to Classic Oils...why they mis-stated the ZDDP level in Silkolene is something they'd have to explain. They are in the business of selling oil, I'm not. I have no reason to manipulate the market or perceptions of certain products. Someone who is selling them might (far more so than me anyway).

 

I tried to add something to the conversation. Please do say if you think my contribution was unhelpful.

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" Please do say if you think my contribution was unhelpful"

 

Exactly the opposite Steve, by exposing what could be construed in your comments and my addressing it directly brings it into the open and then after examining what's said people can make their own minds up.

 

Peter,

 

Bloody hell ! just as we thought we were getting a handle on ZDDP this latest thinking makes it all very woolly. unless I've missed it I cant remember anybody specifying ZDDP by "confirming the Zn or P ppm" numbers, it's normally just shown as ****Zddp ! how do we make sense of that ? It's hard enough to get those ZDDP numbers out of some suppliers never mind defining ZN or P.

 

Mick Richards

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Where'd you pick it up from Gav?

 

Easy for me Matt as I'm an Elf retailer. Any local garage retailing Elf products should be able to source it for you. If not PM me and I can send some through.

 

I also have access to filters, plugs etc so thinking seriously of listing this specialty stuff through my business on Trademe in the not to distant future. Just a bit too busy at the moment.

 

Cheers

Edited by KiwiTR6
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" Please do say if you think my contribution was unhelpful"

 

Exactly the opposite Steve, by exposing what could be construed in your comments and my addressing it directly brings it into the open and then after examining what's said people can make their own minds up.

 

Peter,

 

Bloody hell ! just as we thought we were getting a handle on ZDDP this latest thinking makes it all very woolly. unless I've missed it I cant remember anybody specifying ZDDP by "confirming the Zn or P ppm" numbers, it's normally just shown as ****Zddp ! how do we make sense of that ? It's hard enough to get those ZDDP numbers out of some suppliers never mind defining ZN or P.

 

Mick Richards

Mick,

Me too, but "ZDDP as Zn ppm" should be standard practise - it was once.

The reason for using Zn ppm is because all ZDDP varieties have just one zinc atom in the middle:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/Zn%28dtp%292.png/250px-Zn%28dtp%292.png

The R in that diagram can be any length of hydrocarbon so the whole ZDDP molecule can be as big as 2000 or as small as 400, but the Zn contribution is always 65. So Zn ppm is a better measure of the numbers of molecules floating around in a volume of oil.

That's why oil specs quote ZDDP as Zn ppm. It's conventional. Or was in the past. P as a percentage was also used.

 

I'm confident the 1200-1400 ppm desirable range we have used in past threads was for Zn ppm, or possible P ppm

 

I had difficulty trying to explain the difference so I very much doubt a phone call a sales office will resolve the isssue. The oil co lab chemists will know. Best of all is a data sheet with the precise units given. Ideally I'd want to see both "ZDDP ppm" and "ZDDP as Zn ppm". ** That would remove any doubt what we have. And both should be on the label.That's the oil I would buy and we can then put this persistent, and growing, ZDDP uncertainty to bed.

 

There is a sales pitch is stating ZDDP ppm, not Zn ppm, becasue its a bigger number..."more ZDDP for your money"

 

Even worse, a modern oil with say "200ppm Zn" could simply be rebadged in classic tins labelled "1400ppm ZDDP". It could be the same stuff and both labels would be correct and above legal dispute.

 

 

Peter

 

** Or P as a percentage or ppm. The Zn and P contributiond ot the molcule are much the same.

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Over here the local Elf importer produces their own classic 20W50 oil with a 1250ppm ZDDP content. I know exactly what I'm getting :)

 

attachicon.gifExpert Retro 20W50.pdf

 

Gavin

NZ

Gavin,

Not from that data sheet you dont.

It quotes 1250 ppm ZDDP

http://www.lubenz.co.nz/petrol-engine-oil/246-vertex-expert-retro-20w50.html

That is NOT what an Elf chemist would put into print. That 1250ppm is the Zn or P concentration in the oil that is contributed by ZDDP, and is what a classic oil should contain.The ZDDP content proper will be around 7 to 30 times higher, and certainly not 1250ppm.

 

If it reallly is 1250ppm ZDDP I suggest you do not sell it as classic oil as its not got enough ZDDP....by about 7 to 30-fold

 

see posts above.

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Gavin,

Not from that data sheet you dont.

It quotes 1250 ppm ZDDP

http://www.lubenz.co.nz/petrol-engine-oil/246-vertex-expert-retro-20w50.html

That is NOT what an Elf chemist would put into print. That 1250ppm is the Zn or P concentration in the oil that is contributed by ZDDP, and is what a classic oil should contain.The ZDDP content proper will be around 7 to 30 times higher, and certainly not 1250ppm.

 

If it reallly is 1250ppm ZDDP I suggest you do not sell it as classic oil as its not got enough ZDDP....by about 7 to 30-fold

 

see posts above.

Peter

 

Thanks Peter for pointing out my ignorance. I'll be in touch with their technical people on Monday to find out exactly what the zinc content is and advise accordingly.

 

As you say, I don't want to be selling (let alone using myself) an oil that's not up to the job for our precious classics.

 

Regards

Gavin

Edited by KiwiTR6
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Great to read Peter’s comments on the different way that marketers could promote oil in different ways, I think I understand it...... makes me feel even more comfortable about using Classic Oils 20/50 which is very clear on its label: c.1300 ppm Zinc as ZDDP

 

https://www.classic-oils.net/Classic-Oils-Heritage-20W50

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Great to read Peter’s comments on the different way that marketers could promote oil in different ways, I think I understand it...... makes me feel even more comfortable about using Classic Oils 20/50 which is very clear on its label: c.1300 ppm Zinc as ZDDP

https://www.classic-oils.net/Classic-Oils-Heritage-20W50

Wow, that oil is very good value, £75 shipped for 4*5l !

 

I might be a convert!

 

Steve

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Thanks Peter for pointing out my ignorance. I'll be in touch with their technical people on Monday to find out exactly what the zinc content is and advise accordingly.

 

As you say, I don't want to be selling (let alone using myself) an oil that's not up to the job for our precious classics.

 

Regards

Gavin

Gavin,

Zinc or Phosphorus ppm is the number we need from them. My guess is Elf will tell you it is 1250 ppm. And the "1250ppm ZDDP" is shorthand for what they mean to say. Sales-speak.

Will be interesting to hear what they say.

Peter

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