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Best clutch option?


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So. My engine rebuild continues and I need to start thinking about the clutch.

 

I've read all the obvious postings. But am still not sure of the best option here in the UK.

 

Does anyone have experience of the options being sold by Moss, Rimmers and TR shop?

 

I have a 72 CP engine which has the original "laycock" cover.

 

All thoughts appreciated. Thanks

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Hi Mark

 

Moss Europe list a Borg & Beck clutch cover and plate for around £114 plus a release bearing. The other clutch kits are aftermarket or Raicam which I don't recognise as a long standing supplier.

 

If it was my choice I would go with Borg & Beck if you are looking for a standard 8.5" clutch, and the price is comparable anyway. It might also be worth checking the cross shaft condition and components as well before it all goes back in but if you've done a rebuild you might have already covered this. The parts listed are on this link.

 

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/clutch-system-tr5-6.html

 

Regards

 

Kevin

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Mark,

 

In my experience Borg is good but it's the clutch operating mechanism that needs serious thought. After two gearbox out's to fix broken shafts I fitted a co-axial clutch from Cambridge Motor Sport and that was the end of my troubles. Also ensure you have the two correct bolts needed to align the gearbox to the engine do not skimp on this simple item.

 

 

Alan

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Original is best especially if you have the Laycock cover, get a Laycock plate. Best by a mile. Contact JCL he should be able to help you.

Alan

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Hi Mark

 

Moss Europe list a Borg & Beck clutch cover and plate for around £114 plus a release bearing. The other clutch kits are aftermarket or Raicam which I don't recognise as a long standing supplier.

 

If it was my choice I would go with Borg & Beck if you are looking for a standard 8.5" clutch, and the price is comparable anyway. It might also be worth checking the cross shaft condition and components as well before it all goes back in but if you've done a rebuild you might have already covered this. The parts listed are on this link.

 

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/clutch-system-tr5-6.html

 

Regards

 

Kevin

Hi Mark,

Firstline bought the name Borg & Beck so they are not the same supplier to BL as originally thought by many! If you go down that route make sure that the friction plate has 16 rivets in it and not 5? The 5 rivet type has a habit of disintegration! as other have reported on this Forum. I went for the AP clutch along with Revington's Phosphor Bronze bearing carrier with the saloon car slippers in the carrier grooves as this has a major effect on the operation and oilite bushes for the cross shaft, its the best that my clutch has ever worked, no ratching, when letting out the clutch! If you have an old Laycock clutch unit Revington used to do a service exchange on these units, its worth checking that out!

Bruce.

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Hi Mark,

Firstline bought the name Borg & Beck so they are not the same supplier to BL as originally thought by many! If you go down that route make sure that the friction plate has 16 rivets in it and not 5? The 5 rivet type has a habit of disintegration! as other have reported on this Forum. I went for the AP clutch along with Revington's Phosphor Bronze bearing carrier with the saloon car slippers in the carrier grooves as this has a major effect on the operation and oilite bushes for the cross shaft, its the best that my clutch has ever worked, no ratching, when letting out the clutch! If you have an old Laycock clutch unit Revington used to do a service exchange on these units, its worth checking that out!

Bruce.

Even AP became part of Raicam which in turn is part of an Italian concern nowadays, so neither company are who they originally were.

 

Many British manufacturers that survived the decline of British car making, ended up consolidating with someone else, though I think Firstline bought Borg & Beck as a going concern and not just in name.

 

Kevin

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Thanks all.

 

Kevin unless I've misread it, the Moss one looks to be from Raicam?

 

And I gather from the comments above that AP or Borg & Beck don't exist anymore ?

 

I looked again at my laycock plate and it's been worn by the release bearing so using that's not really an option.

 

So I'm still after suggestions please on what people have used recently and what seems to be the best option.

 

Thanks again

 

Mark

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Hi Mark,

was your clutch system working very well before the engine work.

Was there any trace of the pedal ratcheting upon lift it up.

 

If yes then check your gearbox input shaft and the release bearing snout for concentricity.

I had all sorts pf trouble with my 4A clutch. As a last gasp I checked mine and found it out by 0.015".

I made a tapered shim to put under the extension snout. This brought it back to alignment and lo and h=behold the ratcheting was gone.

 

I'll check ouit my parts for the clutch cover, plate and release bearing. to morrow.

 

Roger

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Hi Mark,

was your clutch system working very well before the engine work.

Was there any trace of the pedal ratcheting upon lift it up.

 

If yes then check your gearbox input shaft and the release bearing snout for concentricity.

I had all sorts pf trouble with my 4A clutch. As a last gasp I checked mine and found it out by 0.015".

I made a tapered shim to put under the extension snout. This brought it back to alignment and lo and h=behold the ratcheting was gone.

 

I'll check ouit my parts for the clutch cover, plate and release bearing. to morrow.

 

Roger

Hi Roger.

 

This is a nut and bolt restoration project - I don't think it's run for over a decade and arrived in various boxes over a year ago!

 

Yes I'd be interested in what you're using and if you're happy with it.

 

Alternatively if anyone has used those being offered by Moss, Rimmer's or TR shop recently and are happy with them I'd be keen to know.

 

Thanks

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I've got a Laycock on my spare TR250 engine. I drove with it several thousand miles before switching lumps. Fine kit no doubt; if I were to critique it I would say the engagement is rather abrupt.

 

I've been using the TRF Magic Clutch kit for many 10s of 1000s of miles since ( at least 60K in one of my cars so far ) and find them to be utterly without vices, i.e. even better than the Laycock. This kit comprises SACHS pressure plate, LUK driven plate and Koyo throwout bearing. TRF even give a warranty with it. If considering this option make sure to use all components and not some, as they may not mix well in the TR application.

 

Cheers,

Tom

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Thanks all.

 

Kevin unless I've misread it, the Moss one looks to be from Raicam?

 

And I gather from the comments above that AP or Borg & Beck don't exist anymore ?

 

I looked again at my laycock plate and it's been worn by the release bearing so using that's not really an option.

 

So I'm still after suggestions please on what people have used recently and what seems to be the best option.

 

Thanks again

 

Mark

Hi Mark

 

The market is changing as you know all the time with top labels being bought out etc by other companies.

 

However, since my first post I've come across a pretty comprehensive article on the Minispares website (author Pete Buckles btw) which explains all and does realign my answer somewhat, as it appears that the Raicam clutch is identical to original AP, AND made by some of the people who made the original clutches, so in that case Raicam should be good! Article link explaining all below:-

 

http://minispares.com/article/Technical~Information/Clutch/Borg~~and~~Beck~by~Firstline.aspx?ids=6%7C29%7C5218&perma=borg-beck-by-firstline

 

Regards

 

Kevin

Edited by boxofbits
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+ 1 for Laycock - I've had mine in the car for 20+years - 70k miles and still going. No issues

 

best Bill

Same here.

Clutch bearing squeaked if I tested my foot on it after I fitted it all back.???? And I thought....

But 20 years later it's still fine!

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Hi Mark,

the cover and friction plate on my 4A are from the TR6 kit GCK6003X that I bought form Moss

I swapped the bearing for an expensive RHP. THis uses an AP set of parts.

 

The GCK 6003X is rated at 535dN. The alternative for the TR6 is the GCK6004X and if rated at 400dN - haven't clue what that means.

 

Although the clutch assembly looks like heavy engineering it is quite delicate.

The GB input splined shaft needs to be concentric with the bearing carrier extension nose. Mine was 0.015" out of alignment and caused total chaos.

 

Make sure your input shaft is aligned.

 

There are brass (or very soft) bearing carriers on the market. If you want to use them then install the slopper pads on the fork rather than the two pins.

I use a nice steel carrier from the TRShop and it works perfectly.

Use a quality release bearing - the starting price for bearings is less than £20, give these a miss. A good RHP is more than £50 get that one.

 

Roger

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Thanks for all the info. Much appreciated.

I spoke to Remington today. They offer recon. laycock clutches and will take mine in return. Am going to go with them I think.

 

Regards

 

Might be worth a message to Alec about more economical sources of rebuilt Laycock covers - given the location his chap and the one the dealer uses are likely to be the same.

 

There is also a company in Leicestershire who rebuilt mine last year (£30 or £40) (will check the contact - he rebuilt mine but a mate sorted it as he was having his done too)

Edited by andymoltu
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I have, over the years, perused more than a few clutch commentaries from the pens of our North American friends.

 

Conclusion - I'm more inclined to question their driving, spannering and installation habits and techniques than the clutch assemblies.

 

Apart from which, historical discussion of reproduction component quality of a decade or two on is of limited current value. Products tend to evolve.

 

 

Laycock clutch reconditioning is a minefield. The primary problem lies in the almost exhausted availability of new old stock OE component with which to rebuild the clutch assemblies. Production ceased nearly 30 years ago.

 

The usual options of reutilising lightly used component, or substituting some not-quite-correct alternative (that happens to fit) from AN Other application, is unlikely to meet the expectation of the discerning buyer - either in terms of performance, or of service life. Diaphragms and springs are the problem, they have to be the correct matched ratings . . . . apart from wear on the friction plates and cover chassis themselves.

 

Having said that, it can be for example that lightly used springs from a heavier friction plate might offer a second satisfactory life in a lighter application - obviously such individual attention requires careful inspection and testing, which costs

 

The alternative can be to modify, remachine, AN Other application spring diaphragm to properly suit the TR application - which of course differs according to model, 4 or 6 cylinder engine. Highly skilled work, which again costs.

 

Some of the so-called 'reconditioned' Laycock assemblies I have personally tested (on the proper test rigs, I might add) have proved in my opinion to be rubbish, pure and simple - and at a cost of a couple of hundred quid for a clutch kit. Caveat emptor, as they say.

 

For more than 30 years I've utilised the services of Precision Clutch for all my various clutch requirements, TR and numerous other applications - and in all that time I've yet to be disappointed. Simon is the boss, and a jolly good bloke, who tells it like it really is. By all means mention my name if you wish, he always seems to do his utmost for TR and Triumph folks generally. Usual disclaimers, I'm not on any kickbacks !!

 

Incidentally, over the years I've acquired many an 'old core' Laycock, B&B or QH unit to assist Simon - you might be surprised at just how many appear fine to the Mk1 eyeball, but find themselves consigned to the scrap stillage after the initial stress and alignment checks. I find it hard to imagine from what I've seen elsewhere that all 'reconditioners' seek to maintain that sort of quality control !

 

At the risk of being even more controversial than usual, I have a fondness for nos QH (Quinton Hazell) clutches if they turn up - always served me well enough, and they're often a bargain price !

 

Need I add, PC are unlikely to be the cheapest of all possible suppliers . . . . . which doesn't bother me one jot, as long as I'm getting what I'm paying for. The cost of the clutch isn't that great in the context of the personal time and effort involved in changing the damn thing !!

 

Link - http://www.precisionclutch.co.uk/

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Used them for my clutch on the 4a recently, good service and quick turnround as well.

Stuart.

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Another minor suggestion - when it comes to the Laycock assembly, I would NOT under any circumstances utilise anything other than an OE spec bearing or a high quality manufacturer direct equivalent.

 

Under no circumstances would I be tempted to suggest any sort of 'uprated' bearing . . . . . regardless of how much bullbabble a TR specialist might spout. I've seen several perfectly good Laycock clutches ruined beyond repair by the fitment of non-standard bearings, and in no instance did there seem to have been any problem with the actual installation technique . . . . the alternative bearing didn't do the job, end of.

 

Just my personal opinion, of course.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

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Wow what a minefield.

Thanks again for all input.

So if I have this right: Stuart and Alec have used precision clutches

Roger has used the moss product with upgraded release bearing.

Has anyone used the Revington reconditioned laycock clutch- and the release bearing and sleeve they provide with it?

 

My starting assumption was I'd just pick up the phone to one of Moss, Rimmer's or TR shop. But if I'm honest I'm still undecided given the variety of views. .

 

Thanks all.

 

Mark

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