Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Thanks Mike. Your observation regards MU being more effected is intersting, seems to me that the unleaded argument has rolled from valves to fuel lines. Did you unlead your head? I too swapped over to pirelli high pressure fuel hoses quite a few years ago and recently replaced again as a service measure as I was sure there would be some weakness. I recently did a swap out of the l/p cav to Bosch pump hoses too. I think your finding implies that it would be advisable people keep a close eye on these and that they don't forget any hoses that are not obvious to the eye. For instance return line. That said you state you low pressure hoses were 20 years old and I would say that's a very long shelf life for any system. If you think about it the Triumph service checks has hoses down on the list, so I would expect a regular check stands to reason. Pipes are also part of my travelling spares pack as well as an extinguisher.... Did you swap out neoprene pipe work too? I wonder if the braided hoses of now and especially from a few years back that have rubber pipes inside will be resistant? Nothing worse than spraying fuel over hot exhaust. Was your new metering unit also with an unleaded shuttle? T Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 I didn't unlead the head, it had an expensive port and polish and I didn't want to go near that. I do use lead replacement additive . My return line from the PRV to the tank had a small leak in a kinked spot, but it was only noticeable from the smell. I had a major leak in the HP line feeding the MU a few years ago , a motorist behind me noticed it. Scary. That's why I replaced the HP line 3 years ago. I check the hoses each winter now and replace anything suspect. All my hoses are Gates Barricade now, except for one small section of 3mm vent line above the tank. My exhaust is generally on the driver side and the fuel lines are on the passenger side but I was still most comfortable with the HP line dripping petrol during the short run home. The whole metering unit was supposed to be suitable for unleaded, I would assume that that included the shuttle- but that was the unleaded fuel 9 years ago, I suspect unleaded today has a different composition. I stuff I get for high octane in Australia looks more like methylated spirits than petrol- if appearance counts for anything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 And there we have it Mike I think your experiences have summed it up. Recapping. 1.) Seems unleading heads may not have been all the hype and expense they were cracked up to be. 2.) Fuel seals (in and out of MU) and pipework seem to have become the priority now and certainly a major safety issue. 3.) Fuel lines may not be the regular maintenance item they should always be. 4.) Its not clear to me if and if necessary that shuttles also be unleaded and maybe here a wait and see solution (at the risk of a breakdown) is an option, certainly I waited 20 years without major worries, and the uniit I just had out still has a free shuttle (I still need to dismantle to see the actual state of the shuttle) but I travel with a spare MU in the boot. You mentioned Gates, I have been using Pirrelli high pressure. Certainly high pressure very resistant fuel lines are needed and I agree these are now all metric so may be slightly oversize and may need at least double pipe clips. I have also installed a fuel tap in my entry line so I can quickly inspect and change lines. I would have thought all fuel lines are now appropriate or how is the industry serving itself? I mean there will be a lot of fires if not, but surely petrol companies and pipe manufacturers are working hand in hand so there should be coherence right? So has the unleaded saga of 20 years ago now moved over to the seals and pipes? Was head work as Peters threads seem to point out a hype? Certainly I would convert to unleaded when I rebuild, I will also convert the MU seals to unleaded this time, but I dont know about the shuttle, is this another hype? Certainly you should check all rubber hoses and consider converting them all to safe alternatives? After all whats 30-50£ of hoses compared to your safety and breakdowns? One item hasnt still been addressed and that Injector pipes. I am still using the originals and wonder? I also wonder if swapping to braided would have been a wise move if new fuels are eating rubber. I wonder if there is a risk that braided hoses could leak as they are not easily and visibly inspect-able like the neoprene see my point about injectors being over the exhaust manifold. It sound to me like the unleaded saga is back and maybe where people might have needed to concentrate even more so? Does anyone remember Doctor Michael Bingly, the resident TR PI expert of many years ago? I wonder what he would have had to say? One last thing. If fuel has changed, what about all those petrol cars from the last 10-20 years? Golf GTI's and the like. Wont they be running the fuel pipes we have been running too? Shouldnt a lot of cars and not just TR's on the road be at risk and of course all the other non PI TR's? Have I missed some threads that have already covered this? Surely this is a very important issue? Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jean Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Here a braided hose from my TR3A, tank to filter, after about 5 years, Was wondering about petrol smell around the car and why it was wet at the outside.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Looks like mine and inside mine the rubber was like contact cement. Unleaded has not caused my exhaust valves any real problems but its played havoc with my fuel system components.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) hmm Jean That's what worries me regards the injector braided hoses? I mean you can't see what's beneath and given the position... Edited August 14, 2017 by Rem18 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 IIRC teflon-lined hose is the cure for smelly/softened hoses with ethanol fuel. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) Thanks for that Peter. Sounds to me like there might be the need for some sort of warning post of how recent unleaded petrol is a possible danger hazard. Edited August 14, 2017 by Rem18 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 And there we have it Mike I think your experiences have summed it up. Recapping. 1.) Seems unleading heads may not have been all the hype and expense they were cracked up to be. 2.) Fuel seals (in and out of MU) and pipework seem to have become the priority now and certainly a major safety issue. 3.) Fuel lines may not be the regular maintenance item they should always be. 4.) Its not clear to me if and if necessary that shuttles also be unleaded and maybe here a wait and see solution (at the risk of a breakdown) is an option, certainly I waited 20 years without major worries, and the uniit I just had out still has a free shuttle (I still need to dismantle to see the actual state of the shuttle) but I travel with a spare MU in the boot. You mentioned Gates, I have been using Pirrelli high pressure. Certainly high pressure very resistant fuel lines are needed and I agree these are now all metric so may be slightly oversize and may need at least double pipe clips. I have also installed a fuel tap in my entry line so I can quickly inspect and change lines. I would have thought all fuel lines are now appropriate or how is the industry serving itself? I mean there will be a lot of fires if not, but surely petrol companies and pipe manufacturers are working hand in hand so there should be coherence right? So has the unleaded saga of 20 years ago now moved over to the seals and pipes? Was head work as Peters threads seem to point out a hype? Certainly I would convert to unleaded when I rebuild, I will also convert the MU seals to unleaded this time, but I dont know about the shuttle, is this another hype? Certainly you should check all rubber hoses and consider converting them all to safe alternatives? After all whats 30-50£ of hoses compared to your safety and breakdowns? One item hasnt still been addressed and that Injector pipes. I am still using the originals and wonder? I also wonder if swapping to braided would have been a wise move if new fuels are eating rubber. I wonder if there is a risk that braided hoses could leak as they are not easily and visibly inspect-able like the neoprene see my point about injectors being over the exhaust manifold. It sound to me like the unleaded saga is back and maybe where people might have needed to concentrate even more so? Does anyone remember Doctor Michael Bingly, the resident TR PI expert of many years ago? I wonder what he would have had to say? One last thing. If fuel has changed, what about all those petrol cars from the last 10-20 years? Golf GTI's and the like. Wont they be running the fuel pipes we have been running too? Shouldnt a lot of cars and not just TR's on the road be at risk and of course all the other non PI TR's? Have I missed some threads that have already covered this? Surely this is a very important issue? Tony I changed all my fuel hoses in Jan this year to Gates barricade, petrol smells have gone. ALL the changed hoses were degrading especially the return from PRV to tank, they were about 20 years old! There is no doubt in my mind that modern fuel is very aggressive. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 There are many that make new fuel pipe that will be ok,as for braided most learn over time to remove them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 There are many that make new fuel pipe that will be ok,as for braided most learn over time to remove them. Neil I would rather be able to see any suspect areas. Do you also think that for injection pipes? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) I changed all my fuel hoses in Jan this year to Gates barricade, petrol smells have gone. ALL the changed hoses were degrading especially the return from PRV to tank, they were about 20 years old! There is no doubt in my mind that modern fuel is very aggressive. Bruce. Yep.I do wonder if you can eliminate the smell entirely though? As someone who sat in the back of a new TR6 as a kid, they smelt even from new! Edited August 14, 2017 by Rem18 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Neil I would rather be able to see any suspect areas. Do you also think that for injection pipes? Yep They did not smell from new. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Oh yeah. From 1970 onwards I spent a lot of the time in one (my dad drove to central London every day) and I can tell you they did. I can remember one time at Dover setting off my dad filled up and the Lucas pump even decided to start throwing fuel out. I can't help feeling that sitting just 2" from the tank with just a bit of cardboard doesn't leave a lot of choice. The other thing is the exhaust being sucked back in when driving with the hood down. But maybe you have a better freshner hanging from your mirror? Haha Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Oh yeah. From 1970 onwards I spent a lot of the time in one (my dad drove to central London every day) and I can tell you they did. I can remember one time at Dover setting off my dad filled up and the Lucas pump even decided to start throwing fuel out. I can't help feeling that sitting just 2" from the tank with just a bit of cardboard doesn't leave a lot of choice. The other thing is the exhaust being sucked back in when driving with the hood down. But maybe you have a better freshner hanging from your mirror? Haha Yeah? I have two here one Weberd and one Pi you can put food or clothes in the boot and no smell Thank you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) No one like me who has had one from new is a bigger fan, my dad picked his up directly from Coventry via a favour when there was a waiting list. But your being a romantic. One thing you never lose in life is your smell memory and I have a Triumph one since I was 9... Now with care you can do much better, though I don't know if I would want to pack my sandwiches in the boot anyway. But I am talking about new in 1970. It was very different. There was a constant pump whine and that Triumph plastic seat and plastic covering on trim, plus petrol, smell and as I said if the Lucas pump decided to throw fuel you could probably could have sandwiches 'flambe' Even the Triumph garages didn't have much idea really and you could forget the AA or normal mechanics who you couldn't let near. The other thing was petrol stations where it wasn't self service and attendants just wouldn't stop trying to fill the tank to the brim and invariably you got overspill from the short neck Ahh the good old days.... Edited August 14, 2017 by Rem18 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Old news fella, been covered over many years your last comment is how it was. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 I was there and they did smell of plastic and petrol for many reasons. Enjoy your sandwiches, hope your missus makes them good enough to cover up any pong ???????? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Hi Bruce, Looks like you are ahead of me with the Gates Barricade hoses. I contacted 2 main TR suppliers and asked for the specification of the hoses used for the two HP applications: Pump to PRV and fuel pipe to MU. One did not know it "but it should be ok". Bot a very satisfying answer. The other (Revington) has good specific information on their website, and also indicated their rubber hoses will smell (are permeable) and the best option to eliminate smell is to use teflon lined hoses. Revington sell both options, rubber and ptfe. Downside of the ptfe lined hoses is the inability to dampen vibrations (pulsations), which can result in noise. I considered using AN style fittings but am not convinced this is a better solution. I would be keen to learn what couplings you used for the Gates hoses, and which type of the Gates hoses. I have dismantled the original hoses (hard as plastic and fractured but probably very old), so have the original fittings. The old hoses were fitted with jubilee clips, this is not a good practice given the service, temperature and pressure I feel. Thanks, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) I was there and they did smell of plastic and petrol for many reasons. Enjoy your sandwiches, hope your missus makes them good enough to cover up any pong Yeh can smell it a mile off bull ;)Yes seen the late MBs work,clever man who knew what he was talking about. Edited August 14, 2017 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Yeh can smell it a mile off bull ;)Yes seen the late MBs work,clever man who knew what he was talking about. Don't know if that's a good idea in the sandwiches? ???????? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) Hi Bruce, Looks like you are ahead of me with the Gates Barricade hoses. I contacted 2 main TR suppliers and asked for the specification of the hoses used for the two HP applications: Pump to PRV and fuel pipe to MU. One did not know it "but it should be ok". Bot a very satisfying answer. The other (Revington) has good specific information on their website, and also indicated their rubber hoses will smell (are permeable) and the best option to eliminate smell is to use teflon lined hoses. Revington sell both options, rubber and ptfe. Downside of the ptfe lined hoses is the inability to dampen vibrations (pulsations), which can result in noise. I considered using AN style fittings but am not convinced this is a better solution. I would be keen to learn what couplings you used for the Gates hoses, and which type of the Gates hoses. I have dismantled the original hoses (hard as plastic and fractured but probably very old), so have the original fittings. The old hoses were fitted with jubilee clips, this is not a good practice given the service, temperature and pressure I feel. Thanks, Waldi WaldiAre you running a Bosch or Lucas? Peter is right there is a selection of stuff around And you can be sure Neil Revington knows his stuff. Not sure about vibrations but I am sure you can compensate a bit, better to be safe than sorry right. So a bit of tinkering to reduce noise is a good trade. Edited August 14, 2017 by Rem18 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Bingley was a wise man and many years ago he sent me some nice documetation regards setting up stuff and tuning on the fly. But he did have some different views. One I remember was running two Lucas pumps together.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Colin White Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Mike C - as another Aussie TR PI owner (Adelaide) did you source the Gates Barricade hose here in Australia, and if so where from? Thanks., Colin W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rem18 Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Colin See here http://www.lostracing.com.au/news/gates-barricade-hose/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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