Running in?

[pfenlon]

Having rebuilt my engine with new pistons etc etc , unleaded head, and on Carb's, the question regarding oil arises.

 

Some say that a lighter 30 weight oil is the way to go for 100, to 150 miles. Castrol is highly recommended, but at a cost of £9 a litre it seems an expensive exercise.

 

Then others say, just run it on 20 50 oil and all will be OK, a far cheaper option.

 

I dont recall Triumph or any other manufacturer when they sold a new car in the 60's or 70's saying that it was supplied with running in oil, and its best to change it after 150 miles.

 

So what is the norm here, machining and new parts have so far cost about £1600, so naturally I won't skimp on oil, if its really necessary.

 

BUT is it?

 

[Ade-TR4]

I remember being advised not to use a modern synthetic oil when running in as it's "too slippery".

 

A good mineral 20/50 would likely be just fine, but I'll defer to some of our engine experts, I'm sure they'll be able to help!

 

Millers Oils aren't too far from you in Brighouse; maybe drop them a line?

 

Ade

[Peter Cobbold]

ZDDP content is essential for our engines. I would use a classic 20/50 with around 1200ppm Zinc or phosphate. .

And never run without it. Most modern oils do not have enough ( or none) as it poisons catalytic convertors.

ZDDP is essential in running-in.

Peter

[openroad]

Hi Peter, I was advised to use a Running In Oil, for about 500 miles or so.

 

Then the Millers 20/50 Mineral, for the rest of its life as it were.

 

Made good sense and worked for me.

Cheers,

Conrad.

[Motorsport Mickey]

Hi Pete,

 

I'm with the "Prof" on this, normal cooking 20/50 making sure it has the correct level of ZDDP and drop the oil after 500 miles to remove any bits of crud that always manage to hide away inside. Then top up with the same with ZDDP and away you go, I assume you'll be giving it BMEP running from the go and so that will bed the rings in and avoid top end glazing.

Classic Heritage 20w50 mineral oil which has ZDDP at 1300 ppm and only costs £15.50 plus VAT will do the job nicely.

 

Web page here http://www.classic-oils.net/Classic-Oils-Heritage-20W50

 

Mick Richards

Edited July 15, 2017 by Motorsport Mickey

[Dave Larnder]

Pete

 

Moss sell a Running In oil which I used for 500 miles, and since then I use Castrol GTX with a 14ml. bottle of ZDDP added. to a 5 litre pack. Since then done 26000 miles and she purrs through all the gears.

 

Dave

[monty]

I would agree with Mick, run for 500 miles & then replace along with a new filter. My preference has been for Millers Classic 20/50 or the Classic Sport 20/50 if the engine is uprated. Good supplier is Classic Oils of Aylesbury.

Cheers.

[pfenlon]

Some sensible answers there and the classic 20/50 I think I will go with,

 

Zddp I hadn't heard of

 

or B M E P but Mick's a racer.

 

must get out more, thanks to all for the contributions.

Edited July 15, 2017 by pfenlon

[Motorsport Mickey]

Here you go Peter,

 

Bit of a thumbnail portrait but Brake Mean Effective Pressure (*BMEP) is the highest achieved pressure achieved within the cylinder upon the downward power stroke. Normally happens about the maximum torque area of the engine and revs, the highest pressure expands the piston rings and allows them to "bed" into the cylinder liner bores "scouring" the oil from of the bores and gouging (we are talking microns) complimentary grooves (under highest magnification even smooth finished surfaces aren't ) of piston ring into the liner walls.

The bedding in is important to achieve best cylinder compressions achieving best mpg and power, also important to avoid the dreaded glazed bores which can happen if the rings aren't expanded enough to bed in or match to the cylinders. This can happen with all makes of car (often mentioned on the Porsche Drivers forum for example) where if the car is used for "trophy" purposes ( 50mph "easyfoot" cruising max, restrained on a convertible because it ruffles somebodies hair !) of posing and not often used purposefully the bores can get glazed. As you can imagine a "slippy" synthetic oil is more disposed to this also and the only engineering cure is a full engine strip for the bores to be honed and new piston rings (eyewatering costs on a Porsche at their labour rates).

After a couple of hundred miles normal driving the way to bed the rings successfully is on a motorway gradient (long and normally gradual) to drive in top gear (to load the engine) about 500 revs under the engines max torque area and floor the throttle. Hold it down until you get about 500 revs over the max torque area and then brake the engine down to the same revs and carry out the same exercise again and again, you can normally get 2 or 3 runs in on a gradient, come off at the next exit and go back on the other side using the other gradient to the same affect. I normally devote maybe an hour to bed the rings (or about 200 miles of normal roads) or 20 mins on a rolling road when the operator can load the engine on the rollers and hold it watching the gauges.

Once done you still have to be aware and most of us have developed driving practices we don't even think about to continue keeping the engine working and bedded in, my daily driver tows a 1500kg caravan about 3000 miles a year...that does the job for that !

 

PS: Driving it like you stole it don't cut the mustard, to high in the rev range.

 

Mick Richards

Edited July 15, 2017 by Motorsport Mickey

[Ian Vincent]

Y ars ago I had a friend who bought an Alfa Guilia Spider that had only been used for gentle driving to and from the pub and it had glazed bores. As Mick says, a full engine strip was needed to put it right.

 

Fortunately we could do it ourselves because Alfa rates weren't cheap either.

 

Rgds Ian

[john.r.davies]

Fully agree with Mick, but not that you need a motorway or a gradient. Accelerate in a higher gear than normal, without letting it bog down, the let go the throttle and use engine braking in gear to slow down. Any quiet road will do - it annoys any driver behind you!

The first forces the rings to the bores, as he says, the second maximises chamber vacuum to draw oil up onto the rings hand keep.them lubricated.

My break in oil is the cheapest supermarket/DiY store stuff I can get, with ZDDP additive https://lucasoil.com/products/engine-oil-additives/engine-break-in-oil-additive-tb-zinc-plus

No point in long-life, antiwear, detergent additives when you're going to chuck it in 500 miles.

John

Edited July 15, 2017 by john.r.davies

[Motorsport Mickey]

"My break in oil is the cheapest supermarket/DiY store stuff I can get, with ZDDP additive https://lucasoil.com...ve-tb-zinc-plus
No point in long-life, antiwear, detergent additives when you're going to chuck it in 500 miles."

 

Quite right John, no good putting a £100 ($120) ! ! ! (Amazon) additive in the oil and then chucking it, they do say put a bottle in every oil change...buqqer your engine oil must be cheap !

 

I think I'll stick with the Classic Oils Heritage with inclusive ZDDP !

 

Mick Richards

[Guest ntc]

If you have cam lube etc in the engine run it at 2000rpm 2x10 mins, stop it change oil and filter as it will be knackerd anyway.Then good 20/50 change again at 1000 miles.

[Ian Vincent]

If you have cam lube etc in the engine run it at 2000rpm 2x10 mins, stop it change oil and filter as it will be knackerd anyway.Then good 20/50 change again at 1000 miles.

So is this what the factory and their dealers did for every car they sold? I think not.

 

Rgds Ian

[Peter Cobbold]

BMEP is the highest mean pressure created during the power stroke. It occurs at the rpm giving peak torque roughly 3000rpm for a TR. Here we see the line of calculated BMEP (145psi) 'kissing' the power line at peak torque, at about 3200rpm, for a TR2:

http://prntscr.com/fwanhf

 

Peter

[Guest ntc]

So is this what the factory and their dealers did for every car they sold? I think not.

 

Rgds Ian

Did I say that? they did not have the time.

[john.r.davies]

Mickey,

Yes, "Lucas Break-in Oil Additive" is sold at ridiculous prices on Amazon, as are many other things.

 

It's available on eBay for a tenth of that, but at present only from America, which trebles the cost: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lucas-10063-Engine-Break-In-Oil-Additive-16oz-/192164785136?epid=1426304506&hash=item2cbde9ebf0:g:dQAAAOSwWWxY-fur

 

At present, I'm searching for a UK stockist, or an alternative - let you know!

 

JOhn

[Motorsport Mickey]

So is this what the factory and their dealers did for every car they sold? I think not.

Rgds Ian

Ian,

 

The factory didn't even work out the geometry of the steering on the TR to avoid "bump steer" and then mount steering racks at the correct height when it's as easy to do it right as do it wrong !

I think you have unfounded faith in manufacturers, 90% of any manufacturers problems is with easy things that cost 4/5s of bugger all to do better, often not identified by them until the vehicles are in daily use, THATS when it starts to get expensive to remedy.

 

Mick Richards

[john.r.davies]

Mickey, All

My apologies, for recommending something no longer possible. The only Lucas breakin additive available is in the US, no UK stockist that I've contacted has it, and I notice that Lucas and other oil makers are now offering breakin oil, with high ZDDP, already to use. The cost of shipping US-UK is as much as the ready mades.

 

So I've had to go the ready-made route. Doesn't save, or cost very much more, but it's satisfying doing a home-brew! Bit like rollups when we smoked!

John

[monty]

So is this what the factory and their dealers did for every car they sold? I think not.

Rgds Ian

So is this what the factory and their dealers did for every car they sold? I think not.

Rgds Ian

Trust the factory or a car dealer! I met a lovely guy last year who sold these cars along with Astons for Richard Attwood & he told me some lovely stories regarding car sales. With regard to Triumph, as long as the doors closed ok then it went on the forecourt! Never mind panel gaps & suchlike!

Regards.

[Ian Vincent]

My point about 'running in' and how best to do it, was that we are not talking about racing engines here, they are only a couple of steps removed from a tractor engine. When they were new they would have had only the most basic 'running in' before they were sold and hopefully an oil and filter change cat 500 miles. They were then good for 50k miles. Very few of these cars are now going to cover 50k miles so let's not get carried away.

 

Rgds Ian

[Motorsport Mickey]

Trouble is Ian when they were new oils were not the concoctions of the devil they are now with modern additional additives anti wear anti scuff etc these combined with the "gentle" way they are now likely to be driven all combine to build glaze on the walls of the cylinders.

The original purchasers of TRs were either "Hooray Henry's who used to razz the cars around terrorising MGs ( the normal prey of TRs) and other lesser machines or in their second and 3/4/5/6 th and other lives were used as their only cars by owners who certainly didn't " wan't to preserve the marque" and wrote a good few off by "driving like Jehu" ( ie: furiously). All this combined with unsophisticated oils ( if they ever remembered to put any in ) meant upper cylinders were scuffed pretty regularly and glaze was not so often a problem.

 

Don't think that glazed bores are bogeyman tales to frighten unsuspecting owners, they do occur and even on the Ford S Max forum which is my daily driver a few owners ( lady nun in Brighton who drives in slippers sort etc ) have it happen.

On TRs on a newly rebuilt engine that's been ladled with extra " anti scuff" jallop on cams and followers and if lubed with high quality oil and driven by a "quivering" owner who's spent 1/4 of his annual pension on it's rebuild ( not criticising or maligning myself and other owners, just painting a picture) who's determined that he won't ever have to pay for another is quite possibly a likely glazed bore candidate.

 

Mick Richards

Edited July 18, 2017 by Motorsport Mickey

[littlejim]

At risk of sending the thread off at a tangent, one of the 'running in' items I had a problem with was when to retighten the head bolts.

From memory, some reference I found said wait for about 1000 miles to retighten.

My head gasket blew at well under that.

 

For the second gasket I did the re-torquing at about 200 hundred miles.

That gasket is still working OK.

[Ian Vincent]

Its OK Mick, I get the point about glazed bores and agree with you, it's over prescriptive running in processes i was having a gentle poke at.

 

FWIW, and at the risk of ending up with egg on my face, I used Halfords Classic 20/50 which I changed along with the filter at about 500 miles.

 

Rgds Ian

[john.r.davies]

double post

Edited July 18, 2017 by john.r.davies