Ade_TR6 Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 Kind readers of this post, Some sage advice would be appreciated. I went to fire up the old bus weekend just gone and, upon clicking the ignition on, noticed a lack of the usual fuel pump 'whine' (a Bosch conversion which is about 6 years old now). This prompted some testing of various items such as the inertia switch (all ok and tested for resistance with a meter) the fuse on the separate supply to the rear of the car - again OK (I run the pump via a relayed supply to ensure good voltage while cranking and with the electrical system under load). And finally check all connections etc. Long story short(er) I have good power supply to the pump, I disconnected the pump and ran 12v to it from my booster pack and concluded it has 'gone to meet its maker. Now to my question, should I replace the Bosch pump or get the original Lucas pump refurbished and reinstall that? I know there are positives and negatives for both solutions but I am open to suggestions. I must confess I am erring towards the refurb option but the swingometer is only just in that quadrant. If I do go down the refurb option are there any recommendations as to who to go to. Many thanks Ade Quote Link to post Share on other sites
openroad Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 Help for your Swingometer, re furb the lucas, try Neil Ferguson, 07977 001571. He did mine and I am happy with it, and all back to Original Lucas. Cheers, Conrad. What I should of said is I have a bosch pump for sale, but am a sucker for Originality.!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gary Flinn Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 I've had a similar dilemma but have been undecided whether to change my original Lucas pump since buying my car nearly two years ago? I've had a couple of Trips out of 40+ miles recently and its been fine, although temperatures where reasonable. I should be out in the Car on Sunday for a 90+ mile trip to Santa Pod, so will see how it performs in 26+ Degree heat, watch this space? (I've got a spare Lucas pump in the boot in case of trouble though!! ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 Ade, was this after a long lay-up? My Bosch worked after such a delay, but would not mai rain enough pressure. My final diagnosis was that one of the ball bearings that act as pump vanes must have seized in the rotor. Due to either fuel residue - circulating a high concentration of injector cleaner did help, a bit, but not enough - or corrosion from water absorbed by alcohol-containing fuel. In the end a new pump solved it. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ade_TR6 Posted June 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 Ade, was this after a long lay-up? My Bosch worked after such a delay, but would not mai rain enough pressure. My final diagnosis was that one of the ball bearings that act as pump vanes must have seized in the rotor. Due to either fuel residue - circulating a high concentration of injector cleaner did help, a bit, but not enough - or corrosion from water absorbed by alcohol-containing fuel. In the end a new pump solved it. John John, It was fine the previous weekend but it had sat for a couple of months before so I suspect I am mirroring your experience. Ade Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 John, It was fine the previous weekend but it had sat for a couple of months before so I suspect I am mirroring your experience. Ade My Bosch pump is 35+ years old and still going strong! Here is a tip from 40 years ago! When you lay up your TR6 add 2 stroke mix to the fuel in the tank of the right proportion to the amount of fuel left! Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 Pro LUCAS: It is the original Contra LUCAS: Its a unhappy marriage of a windscreen wiper motor with the mechanical fuel pump normally fitted to the PI race engines. This system was not continued, Maserati and Triumph are the only ones to use it. The BOSCH system is used in millions of cars. Millions of cars with similar fuel pressure and a BOSCH pump work without trouble. Need I say more? Fit a correct BOSCH with a suitable fuel supply and a fuel cooler and all the trouble is gone forever. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
k_raven_smith Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 Millions of cars running 110psi ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Millions of cars running 110psi ? I take your point but the original Bosch recommended pump by Bosch Engineering UK 40 years ago was a diesel pump capable of running at 150psi + all day so running at TR psi pressures no problem! . This is the type that I am using and it is still in production today!. So you could argue that I am on borrowed time? But would a Joe Lucas pump last that long, I certainly do not think so with out reconning? Especially as the fuel supply from tank to pump is grossly under sized as far as fuel flow which puts the pump under strain all the time and is good at heat generation. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 John, It was fine the previous weekend but it had sat for a couple of months before so I suspect I am mirroring your experience. Ade Might be worth adding a LOT of injector cleaner to a 5L can of fuel, rigging hoses to and from it, and running the pump on extension leads from the battery for a while - it it runs at all. This did help mine, but not completely. If it's immobile, then it's dead. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Bosch any day. A Bosch equivalent can even be viewed as a service item and changed at the time of the fuel filter. The pumps supplied for TRs are not bespoke items so buy from a motor factor. (rather than an overpriced Bosch from a TR dealer) The Lucas pump was at best a compromise to get the price down. A good one is OK but a goodly number are at best marginal in terms of delivery when in optimal condition. If you like originality it is fine to go with Lucas but if you have has a Bosch for a long time why revert to the system's Achille's heel. The other advantage with the Bosch set up is that it can be all fitted in the space take by the Lucas filter which means you can fit a US boot trim and have more space in the boot. Edited June 16, 2017 by andymoltu Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Triumph Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 I would go Bosch, as had been said, a Lucas pump in anything other than top condition can be marginal. I've also used 2-stroke oil during winter layups, as mentioned by Bruce. In 10 years, the Bosch pump on my car has been fine. I'm also tempted to think a bit of 2-stroke oil in the mix may help the metering unit and injectors during a layup. It could even reduce fuel tank corrosion too. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Millions of cars running 110psi ? Not millions, but quite a lot. Over the time the engineers noticed that his pressure is no longer needed. So the pumps adapted to that new purpose and are optimzed for the modern 3-4 bars. But they can do much more and there are pumps quite far beyond 10 amps of draw. Anyway my daily driver is a Mercedes 260E and has either a high pressure pump or two of the normal pumps staged. They are fitted on a block and the 6-7 bars are achieved by two pumps in line making 3-4 bars at each stage. The BOSCH K-Jetronic required more pressure than modern EFI. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 "They are fitted on a block and the 6-7 bars are achieved by two pumps in line making 3-4 bars at each stage." Has anyone tried this combination on a TR6? My Bosch pump needs another pump to prime it's suction- so I have 2 pumps anyway. I'm mainly thinking about future replacements. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Me too, Mike, but the primary pump is a Facet that keeps a swirl pot full, rather than pressurises the Bosch. The pot is less than a foot above the Bosch, so provides a few inches of hydrostatic pressure, which is all that it requires. Pumps in series add their pressures - pumps in parallel add their flows. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Me too, Mike, but the primary pump is a Facet that keeps a swirl pot full, rather than pressurises the Bosch. The pot is less than a foot above the Bosch, so provides a few inches of hydrostatic pressure, which is all that it requires. Pumps in series add their pressures - pumps in parallel add their flows. John My original Bosch pump can pump over 150 psi + with ease, as said its 35+ years old and the only recommended pump that I know of, by Bosch. It only draws 5.5 amps with 25 amp wire powered through a 30 amp relay when the PRV is set at 105 psi. This pump is still made, when I last enquired 3 weeks ago but is on a 15 week lead time as per one of my Bosch local distributors. I am a bit puzzled as to why you need these extra pumps? My pump needs a 10 m/m bore pipe! Both the Lucas pump or any high pressure Bosch pump (8bar) will not work properly on 6m/m (1/4") bore original pipe work. Lucas/CAV had a mod for the Lucas PI system which they sold through their CAV distributors to increase the flow rate to the Lucas pump for the 2.5 Saloons which could be adapted for TR6s. The flow rate given to me years ago for my Bosch pump was a minimum of 2.6 l per min at the pump to 5 l per min. Does your system do that? Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Denis Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Dump the Bosch! In the 45 years I have owned my 6 I have had two Lucas pumps. The current one has been in situ for more years than I can remember without any servicing of any kind. If it was good enough to run the Lucas injection on DFV engines in Formula One from 1967 into the 1980's it's good enough for your Triumph! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Bruce, To increase the bore (inner diameter) of the line from tank to pump to 10 mm: do you have to weld in a new nozzle? Thanks, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 " If it was good enough to run the Lucas injection on DFV engines " Yes, but . . . . . on competition installations the Lucas pump was generally only there to provide initial starting impetus, thereafter the engine-driven mechanical pump took over . . . . . Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Dump the Bosch! In the 45 years I have owned my 6 I have had two Lucas pumps. The current one has been in situ for more years than I can remember without any servicing of any kind.If it was good enough to run the Lucas injection on DFV engines in Formula One from 1967 into the 1980's it's good enough for your Triumph! The pump element may have been the same but the motor driving it was not. It was compromised from the off to get the system price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Bruce, To increase the bore (inner diameter) of the line from tank to pump to 10 mm: do you have to weld in a new nozzle? Thanks, Waldi Bruce, To increase the bore (inner diameter) of the line from tank to pump to 10 mm: do you have to weld in a new nozzle? Thanks, Waldi Yes, you have to find someone who can weld motor cycle fuel tanks which I did. They have the know how in my experience to do this type of work. My original BL welded fitting was cut out after purging my fuel tank with an inert gas. Sometimes it is done using Argon or Co2 then a new larger turned up female boss brazed in, some people will use a type of silver solder. Female/male bosses are available from some hose fitting suppliers usually with a AN thread.. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Dump the Bosch! In the 45 years I have owned my 6 I have had two Lucas pumps. The current one has been in situ for more years than I can remember without any servicing of any kind. If it was good enough to run the Lucas injection on DFV engines in Formula One from 1967 into the 1980's it's good enough for your Triumph! My PI did not work very well at 30C with 1/2 a gallon left in the tank! Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike C Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Me too, Mike, but the primary pump is a Facet that keeps a swirl pot full, rather than pressurises the Bosch. The pot is less than a foot above the Bosch, so provides a few inches of hydrostatic pressure, which is all that it requires. Pumps in series add their pressures - pumps in parallel add their flows. John John, I was thinking of replacing the Facet with a modern 50 odd psi Bosch , capable of sucking fuel . A second 50 psi Bosch in series will give the required 100 psi supply pressure, provided the case of the second Bosch will operate at 100 psi. If I couldn't be sure of the high pressure pump cases' pressure capabilities I'd go no further. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 If it was good enough to run the Lucas injection on DFV engines in Formula One from 1967 into the 1980's it's good enough for your Triumph! That is not correct. Engines like the DFV hat two pumps, one electrical starting and one mechanical for racing. Although the lower part of the pump both mechanical and electrical looks similar there is a great difference: The mechanical driven pump does not get that hot from the electrical motor. The mechanical pump is touring slowly at idle when only a small amount of fuel is needed and supplies a huge amount of fuel on high revs when engine needs a lot of fuel with proper pressure. So a little wear in the pump housing does not have that impact like it has with the electrical what is already running at the limit when new. As I said only Maserati and Triumph relied on that unholy marriage of a windscreen wiper and a fuel pump! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 John, I was thinking of replacing the Facet with a modern 50 odd psi Bosch , capable of sucking fuel . A second 50 psi Bosch in series will give the required 100 psi supply pressure, provided the case of the second Bosch will operate at 100 psi. If I couldn't be sure of the high pressure pump cases' pressure capabilities I'd go no further. It does not look very safe at the Mercedes, the connection between the pumps, already working under 3 bars, looks a little bit small but anyway, its Mercedes and it works for 25 years! What I would do is to buy original BOSCH pumps and not the cheap Charlys to be on the safe side. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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