Fergy Crank in a TR4

[signalredshaker]

Now, there's a thing- will the Moss crank have an option for it to be properly balanced?

I suggest that for the extra few pounds most owners would go for that instead of having to haul it off to a machine shop after purchase.

Added value I believe its called. All assuming it is an equivalent part and not something to add to those items we have all bought and simply don't make the grade. Lets have some quality parts - please.

And yes, I know its better balanced with the flywheel etc...but if the crank is balanced its a better start than we would have ever had.

[Motorsport Mickey]

Waste of time without ALL the parts being done together as you point out.

In fact it may make the final balance more difficult to achieve if the "balanced" crank has had bits removed in areas where it would have been useful to have had some leeway, and why pay twice for a process ? Let it come as is.

 

Mick Richards

[Lebro]

Speaking from a NON motor trade engineering background I would have thought it best to balance the crank, then add the flywheel, & balance that, then finally add the clutch cover, & balance that.

 

Bob.

 

Coat ready

[oldtuckunder]

As you need to add timing gear and front pulley to that list you as Mick said could end up balancing a whole bunch of items to find when assembled and balanced you would have liked a bit more weight at a spot for overall balance where you took some off to get an individual item balanced.

 

The clutch covers should be balanced when made, but my balancer says that these days they rarely are, but back when that might have been taken as grated even the factory knew to stamp the flywheel and the individual pressure plate mounting bolts so that even the bolts went back in the correct holes on re-assembly.

 

Alan

[BrianC]

Mick's preference to have everything balanced together once makes sense to me. However, would having the crank balanced by someone other than the manufacturer/supplier have any effect on a subsequent warranty claim in the event of premature failure?

[Motorsport Mickey]

Depends upon how the crank was balanced along with it's ancillaries.

 

If it was attacked with a 9" grinder and suffered "blueing" in areas or had "heavy" metal added in badly machined holes into critical areas then I'd say the crank supplier would have a definite case to go Oi Oi Oi... etc.

 

However a crank which is balanced correctly and sympathetically actually has an easier life because of the reduction in forces and I don't think there would be a case for a non related failure to be turned down.

 

Mick Richards

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

an interesting topic. I think Mickey's process is the one to follow. Balance the whole thing together - not each piece.

 

How can a supplier balance it when they don't have all the bits/attachments.

 

The prototype I have needed a fair amount of metal removal - 250gm's I believe.

It's Fergy tractor heritage doesn't require such finese and as it is the same casting then the weight distribution is a thing of myth and fantasy.

 

Having said that the balanced prototype spins up nicely and there is no excess vibration.

 

Roger

[Lebro]

Roger.

I was not suggesting that the supplier did any balancing, rather that the three components involved (4 if you include the front pulley) are taken to a balancing facility, then proceed by balancing the crank first, then add the flywheel, & drill only the flywheel to restore balance, same with clutch & front pulley. that way you are not compensating for an out of balance crank by chopping bits out of the flywheel, or clutch cover etc, & if at some future point you need to change say the clutch, there is a reasonable chance that you won't need to touch the remainder.

 

Bob.

[RogerH]

Hi Bob,

I think that is basically what goes on.

 

 

Sort of.

 

Roger

[signalredshaker]

Well, Mr Moss, I'd like mine balancing prior to delivery please- purely on the basis that its got far more knobbly bits whizzing around than, say, a flywheel.

 

As its not made by GKN or whoever, then it might just be a little more out of balance than an original.

I had my present crank and flywheel balanced at GKN Shardlow in Sheffield some years ago but that company has vanished.

I suppose the question is "Is a balanced bare crank better than an unbalanced one?"

James

[RogerH]

Hi James,

a balanced crank on its own is of no use. The whole system needs to be in balance.

 

I know that the prototype that I have needed a heck of lump removing.

Standard TRiumph balanced their cranks - I don;t know in what condition (on its own or built) or to what standard.

 

Asking the supplier to do it when it will need doing again when built will only increase the price.

 

Roger

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Well, Mr Moss, I'd like mine balancing prior to delivery please- purely on the basis that its got far more knobbly bits whizzing around than, say, a flywheel.

 

As its not made by GKN or whoever, then it might just be a little more out of balance than an original.

I had my present crank and flywheel balanced at GKN Shardlow in Sheffield some years ago but that company has vanished.

I suppose the question is "Is a balanced bare crank better than an unbalanced one?"

James

 

Could add 10% to the selling price - would that be acceptable to all - or could they get it done cheaper by their mate?

 

Should the crank will be sold with bearings as a ready to fit item?

 

Balancing possibilities

http://www.robwalkerengineering.co.uk/static_dynamic_balancing.html

 

Cheers

Peter W

[signalredshaker]

Roger,

If these cranks come unbalanced are they suitable for use as delivered or not?

 

I think that needs making very clear by Moss/SDF as I cant see every purchaser wanting to balance one as a necessity as soon as its delivered.

Not every 4-cyl crank user races their cars...

James

[RogerH]

Hi James,

nothing is set in stone just yet - not even the price.

 

There has been discussion about what type of rear seal to use (there are at least four types) and I think our small band of project people are happy with the scroll seal. This means that you can also use the Christian Marx seal straight away or get further machining done if you wish to use the Rover seal.

 

Regards balancing. Do we or don't we from the off.

The ST crank was balanced in the factory but was it in isolation to the flywheel etc or as an assembled kit.

If the new one is done in isolation then it adds to the price - not massively. But does that mean you don;t have to balance the rest of the engine !!

If it is not balanced upon purchase then it would definitely need balancing. This would then include balancing all the parts together.

 

Many members would be having the work done at a garage - would they install a pre-balanced crank and not have the rest done !!

The racing boys wouldn't bother with this crank, they would use the steel billet crank - and get it all balanced.

 

An interesting question would be - if a crank is balanced in isolation would it work OK if the rest of the kit is not balanced.

 

I shall bring this up at the next meeting.

 

Roger

[Chris59]

 

Should the crank will be sold with bearings

 

 

Cheers

Peter W

 

Very good question, Peter !

Edited March 19, 2017 by Chris59

[Alec Pringle]

Personally I'd want the crank balanced on its own, then each of the other rotating/reciprocating components individually balanced and/or matched. Then proceed to balance the whole assembly.

 

Long ago I worked with the old F3/F4 1 litre 'screamers', and with F2000 Pintos, formulae in which every extra 0.5bhp or 50rpm counted. It became clear that the difference between just balancing the whole assembly, or balancing components first and then the whole assembly, was the difference between winning championships or being amongst the runners-up.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Lebro]

+1 That's what I've been trying to say !!

 

Bob.

[Motorsport Mickey]

Roger,

If these cranks come unbalanced are they suitable for use as delivered or not?

 

I think that needs making very clear by Moss/SDF as I cant see every purchaser wanting to balance one as a necessity as soon as its delivered.

Not every 4-cyl crank user races their cars...

James

That's a good point.

 

Speaking for myself all my cars either race or road,have balanced internal assemblies (ok not my Ford S Max !) but not all TR owners may wish to do this, they may wish to substitute and just replace a crank, which if it isn't balanced to the same bog standard TR pattern could then show up a roughness in operation. Maybe a good investment to prevent disappointment, the increase in cost considering the major investment shouldn't deter a purchaser.

 

Mick Richards

[mjdearing]

Rodger dont know if its common knowledge but the rover sd1 known as a standard 2000 in india (1988) and a commercial truck had a 4 cylinder wet liner standard engine,so they must have tooled up for block,cranks and heads etc cast or did they have all our old tooling,wondered if cranks were cross drilled,high port heads ?etc might be worth asking rimmers see if they have a few thousand stashed over in india circa 10 ruppes each ?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_(Indian_automobile)

 

Martin.

[RogerH]

Hi Martyn,

that makes interesting reading. I know Rimmers got hold of stacks of body panels but know nothing of engines.

 

As it happens we know where the cranks are cast and machined - perhaps the Rovers bought in the engine parts from here.

 

Roger

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Hi Martyn,

that makes interesting reading. I know Rimmers got hold of stacks of body panels but know nothing of engines.

 

As it happens we know where the cranks are cast and machined - perhaps the Rovers bought in the engine parts from here.

 

Roger

I have one of those new Indian Standard 2000 cranks still wrapped and in the garage.

Peter W

[RogerH]

Hi Pete,

you have a PM

 

Roger

[mjdearing]

Hi Peter let us all know what the spec is if you get a chance ie cross drilled with or without rear scroll etc would also love to know what carbs they used but not much on google. Martin

Ps did you get it from Rimmers?

[mjdearing]

Well it looks like the standard engines did'nt survive after all for various reasons but mainly the cost of petrol compared to diesel,shame.

 

http://www.roverklubben.se/en/indian-sd1-standard-2000.html

[iain]

If the crank is not balanced......Who is covering the product liability/ warranty?

 

Like wise if the crank has to be machined by the purchaser what happens to the warranty/ liability.....This is relevant to balancing and rear oil seal.

 

Not being a neg just needs to be sorted before commercialisation.

 

Surely the product should be sold ready to fit, with matched bearing shells and the best oil seal. If the purchaser then decides to go a different route......They are paddling their own boat. :-) takes all the agro out of the scenario.

 

Iain