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As some may ev seen in Ians thread

I said I had 2 rockers, woes gaps keep getting bigger

they doo 1-2 thou every 2-300 miles

and they on 1 an 12 EX rockers

 

I was convinced it wer followers wearing away.

could,nt see owt amis wid a snake cam ont followers

nor on cam lobes.

 

the valve tips are not worn,or indented

the rockers are roller, and there no diff in size oft rollers on em all,

and the 2 end rollers are circular

 

Checking cam lift, they are all giving same lift,

so cam lobes still intact

 

So, t,day, Off wid the heed.

 

all followers wer rotating, NO 9 ed a few wee pits just starting,

non had and indents,or concave ends,

as a wee rub on a 1500 grit hone stone showed this to be true

 

checked push rods for bend, all OK

checked ball ends, all OK

cam lift was checked direct ont cam lobe, all 230-232

depth of push rod ends checked, all wid in a few thou of each other { strange, but end ones wer less in depth, so deffo no sinkin into the rods }

all rods are as near a owt identicle

 

there nee signs of wear on owt,

butt, for last 8 months, the gaps are getting bigger.

as the end adjuster nuts are a few threads below all the others

 

butt, just cant see wots wearing away

 

Ive got a wee ,...never in yer wildest dreams, idea in me heed,

butt wont be able t,check this till I get the valves oot.

 

Any suggestionees frae the resident Sages

 

M

Edited by GT6M
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Exhaust valve seats (you've had them done I think) are growing out of the head dropping the valve and increasing the tappet gap.

 

Micky

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Valve seat erosion, or (& I've had this) top end of pushrod cracked, & slowly opening out.

 

Bob.

Hi Bob,

 

Markus said the gap kept increasing by 1 or 2 thou, any erosion would sink the valve into the head and close the gap, (unless it's developed warts and nodules and the valve sits on them !) and he says he's checked the pushrod ends.

 

Mick Richards

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No idea really, but i'd stick it back together again with new or different adjuster screws and nuts, set everything up correctly and take a photo of the rockers.

Run for 300mls!! and compare, at least it would show any rotational movement in the adjusters screws.

Just curious, as to why you check every 2-300 miles. Is gap growth cumulative over say 600mls?.

I've no experience of roller rockers but from what you've said they'd be my first port of call.

 

Cheer's, H.

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+1 for Roger.

 

Try backing off 2/3 and 10/11 to see if the gaps of 1/12 close up could be the two end rocker shaft supports pillars.

If so it would show wear on the top face of the pillars.

 

H.

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Hi Bob,

 

Markus said the gap kept increasing by 1 or 2 thou, any erosion would sink the valve into the head and close the gap, (unless it's developed warts and nodules and the valve sits on them !) and he says he's checked the pushrod ends.

 

Mick Richards

I was waiting to see who would spot that deliberate mistake :ph34r:

 

Bob.

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Hi Marcus

 

Is it possible that the machining inside the followers to receive the ball end of the pushrod is not well formed.....If the side of the cup is too high the ball will collapse the sides until it bottoms out?

Can you see with your camera or clean both parts and use some engineers blue to test the fit?

 

Iain

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Thanks for all respondo,s

been int Man Shed all day,just oot noo.

 

Ive took all the valves oot, and cleaned em up,

also the ex port,an its seats

 

what I was tinkin , was,nt the case, the insert working its way oot

its still in, and the peening over that I did ont chamber heed,is still there.

So it aint that.

 

Looked at the valves, nowt amiss, apart frae v v pok marked valve seat

no clinker on it,or insert,so it wer,nt that mekn gap bigger.

 

As to some of yer suggestionee,s

 

1, the rockers bushes are needle roller, 2 sets, and a bush in the middle.

there is no free play up / doon at all,

just a few thou side ways, this same on em all.

And there is plenty of lube too.

 

Thee,s Rockers are quite substantial things,
so cant see thee,s going,
and im no useing stiff spring either, if owt, slightly less than standard.

 

2, ball ends no seating, I put dykum blue on ends,an turned em,

all seating great, same too for the other end.

 

3, the adjusters are not the ordinary Triumph type, 5/16th

butt,3/8th and a locking nut on them too,

not a half nut, but a locker.

thee,s are not moving, as id marked the nuts just t,see if they wer undooing.

and all threads are good.

 

4, Its no the rocker shaft pillers, thee,s I got are solid steel,

and got alott lott bigger foot print than the OE type.

this shaft is solid, its at least 16 MM thick too.

 

5, Alan mentioned SS valves, Yes all SS inlet an ex.

I was tinking that they are ..stretching !!!

BUTT, measuring em all, they are all 604 - 606 long,

 

 

and TBH, im no too impressed wid thee,s ex valves.

they seem so soft, the seats are always pok marked,

insert ok, just look it, but its dark matter of Valve heed mek,n it look bad,

 

will need new,ns noo, as been re faced that many times, they noo weel under size.

 

I had one of thee,s go a while back, and bunged in an Ordinary T valve.

after id ground it t,match the others.

 

thee,s valves in bronze guides, and the OE valve aint wore at all,

neither has the guide, so it seems OE an Bronze is OK

 

BUTT, intresting thing is, the OE valve wer no as pok marked as the SS type,

just a wee polish wid fine paste ed seat as good as new.

So, gonna bung some OE ex valves in.

 

6, why was I check,n em, every 200-400 miles

a few reasons, I check me valve gaps reguarly,, generally about every 1000.

always ev done, its v v v v easy on a GT,

as one sits ont wheel, tools ont batt tray, Refreshments ont bulkheed,

much easier than on a TR / salloon

 

Butt, been dooing it moer often, as the bigger gaps

gives a tik tik off, which I can hear,

the roller rockers are so so quiet,compared to the original type.

so a faint noise is v v easy t, hear.

 

7, Ev i got cam bearings in,

Nope, and I bunged a clock gauge doon the follower hole, well ont end of a tight fitting bar int follower, and managed t,get a welding rod aroond the cam,

 

then I pull up ont wire, which has got a knot init,

which can be pulled up wid a 1/2 inch drive extension.

 

pulling up, an pushing doon, there 2 ish thou movement

which is nowt at all,

so its no me cam boring into the journals

 

 

So, checked every thing I can, cant see owt amiss at all,

and there nee shiney areas ont base of cam, so base of cam aint wearing away.

 

butt, some things going on, what I just no no.

 

 

Be intresting t hear wot Alan has t,say aboot the SS valves

 

Markus Mostbaffledikussed

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post-12368-0-32190600-1489349890_thumb.jpg

post-12368-0-84041600-1489349969_thumb.jpg

Edited by GT6M
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Be intresting t hear wot Alan has t,say aboot the SS valves

 

 

 

It was just a bit of a guess but I noticed after installing a new set (exhausts from unknown source, and Inlets which I do have a record somewhere) 2 engine builds (3 years ago) that when I came to strip the engine (lets say tops 1.5K miles) that I couldn't drop the valves out! all of them but exhausts worse had swelled/mushroomed (not sure how to describe) over about the top inch, over the working guide length and below fine but above the guide they had ballooned about .005 in diameter, enough they wouldn't push through the guides. As I had decided I was going to replace the steel guides with bronze ones I just gave then a smack and drifted them through. Before refitting I just spun the tops of the valves in the lathe and just cleaned them back to correct dia. At last years rebuild (again max 1.5K miles) they had again swelled a bit but this time only to the point that they needed a gentle tap through the guides, again I just cleaned them up before refitting. This January's rebuild (which wasn't needed but I had to find out!) they were tight but could be pulled through by hand.

 

So my very daft theory is that if they are swelling at the top, the only way they can do that is that they are getting shorter, enough to affect tappet clearances? I don't know as I probably do mine a couple of times during the season anyway. I also suspect that I noticed it because I have stripped engine twice after low mileage when new guides haven't had much time to wear, so highlight easily that the head of the valve stem has swollen. May be if I had done 20k+ miles the guides might have worn enough that the swollen valve stems would just have dropped out, or I would have just put it down to wear.

 

Anyway, as you seemed to have excluded the obvious, I just wondered if it might be something unusual like the valves shrinking, hence the question about stainless valves just on the off chance. Would be interested to know if when you strip and can put a micrometer on the valve stems if you have anything similar.

 

Alan

 

PS not using an excessive lift cam and only using red TR5 double springs with standard rockers.

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You say its the tick, tick that you can hear!! that anoy's you. Try turning your hearing aid down or disconnect your clock because i think weve just about covered all the possible causes/solutions to your problem.

 

If there's a real p[roblem go out and give it rice and if it don't break live with it, if it does break tell us.

 

Hey, you live in Maryport, just shout at it and I bet it'll be as quite as a moose. It's taking the piss.

 

Sorry Ive had a few Beers and pissed off with my irish mates telling me their going to bury us next weekend. In their dreams.

 

Seriuosy, I hope you find the problem and its a cheap fix.

 

H.

H.

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A further idle thought as it intrigued me that you reported the problem on 1 & 12 Ex valves. They are at opposite ends of the block and unlike all the other exhaust ports in the head they don't have as complete a water jacket in the head around them, is the head slightly hotter or cooler at the ends, I don't know, would it make any difference cause anything? However when my engine is back in and running its going to be something I put the laser thermometer on just to find out for interest.

 

Also, but again not sure if it could have any effect, but the end two rocker arms are only supported on one side by the shaft, or rather the shaft is only supported on one side, is it just possible that under heat load there is a tiny flex in the ends of the shaft? As you are only reporting a thou or so, that much flex or even bend in the shaft would be almost indiscernible, of course if your now on your 6th adjustment of 2 thou its a boll..ks theory.

 

Alan

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H says

You say its the tick, tick that you can hear!! that anoy's you. Try turning your hearing aid down or disconnect your clock

 

IF, i did,nt tek action wid constantly adjust ine rockers,

then I would have ended up wid a 40 thou gap,

maybe less,maybe moer.

 

a few thou every 2-300 miles, and did owa 8,000 last year init

 

So, going ont least, 2 thou owa 200 miles , owa 8000 miles , = 40

 

 

running wid wrong gaps alters yer cam timings, yer engine dont run right.

listen to some engines, they like a bag of bolts being shook aboot

 

 

 

 

Alan, its no shaft bending, its 16 mm thick

butt IF shaft wer flexing, then the gaps would close up wen its cold,

they dont, adjust hot or cold, they still get bigger.

 

The end adjusters are a 1/6th 3/32 nd lower than all the rest

So, some thing is wearing, as they dont go doon to tek up slack for nee reason.

 

I was thinking last night, aboot the rockers them selves, actually bending upwards

So, gonna tek the rockers oft ends, and compare, side to side, wid the other arms

 

If there is a difference in shape oft arms or end part,

then if there a diff, then ive fond my problemo.

 

butt for thee,s fairly chunky things to bend, esp wid weakish springs,

and just on 2 as well, !!! possible, unlikly,

butt will report back later

 

M

 

M

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perplexed, will be interested in what you find as .040 is a lot to gain/loose without anything obvious. Of course it could be a combination of things, .0005 here, ,001 there and .0004 elsewhere every 200 miles which individually would be almost impossible to spot.

 

Go back to solid rockers then you can expect some wear so you won't mind having to adjust them :)

 

Ok really stupid thought you say you measured the valves at between 604 - 606 (actually that doesn't make sense 604 - 606 what?) I was going to say if that was mm that 2mm was a lot, however I digress from my stupid thought, its not the top of the valve stem on 1 & 12 wearing it it? say caused by a hard roller wiping them each stroke or slightly stiff end rollers when it gets hot so that there is a lot more friction on the top of the valve stem.

 

Sorry just grasping at thou :unsure:

 

Alan

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Markus

 

Why not try swopping the rockers positioning with others on the shaft and remeasuring and giving it some miles to see what occurs ?

 

Mick Richards

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Ello Ladds,

Alan, 602-604, bung a 4 infrunt, then its length oft valve

 

Mick, Neil,

just been int shed, took rockers off offending ends

used a ..mirror image rocker, and put em side by side

 

bunged em on a flat plate, an measured distances frae, here, ther, an every where,

All identicle, so no rocker arms.

 

So, wen its going back in, I,ll change 1 12 aboots,so if it wears n them 2 agen,,

then its rockers..

 

As to rockers,Ive had em at least 10-12 years,

never had a problemo,

they are Titans,

 

As for bungin in OE rockers, { I got loads of em }

As its only 1 an 12, there is the problemo, no the others.

 

a most baffling cunundrum,it is,it is.

 

Going back to wen I built the engine, a while back,

I was saying there was this awfull bang,n ,clank,n noise.

as it wer coming oot of 1 - 6

 

convinced it wer the ex pipes, as I had em in bits, cut em up, and bunged the bit that goes into the collector,

on the ootside,instead of them going into inside of collector

and going in 1 1/2 inch or moer, thus reducing flow of ex gases.

 

Pipes wer touching, and prying em apart, got rid of a good bit of it.

butt,it wer still a good clankin noise.

After a 1800-,2000 miles, it dissapeared,

this is wen the gaps started appearing

 

a coincidence, I no no

 

Here a link t, noise!!

Another unforseen niggle is the exhaust, after me mods to the 3-1 collector, and then the 2-1 collectors , the engine is now sounding like a blacksmiffs shop,
the exhaust is banging away with quite a regular beat at idle, and a great bigg bang bang at throttle openings

 

http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl/Blah.pl%25253Fm-1135845120/s-45/Blah.pl%3Fm-1386281039/s-30/Blah.pl?m-1430424675/s-75/

 

M

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After measuring till me bat went flat int calipers,

I tink I may have fun oot wot it is,

 

I said the adjuster end balls OK

and ok in depth an width,

 

Butt, whenst putting it back t,gether t,day

I noticed that the gap between the top off the ball end, and the threaded bit,

there like a .scalloped bit, on thee,sns

 

well the ball end on 12, is alott closer to the threads than on 11

 

and on 1, its not as bad, but its also closer to threads

 

all others are same,

 

I aint got any spare adjusters, so will keep an eye on this.

 

Its hard t,see when pushrod is in, as the ball end, is ...Inside the rocker .

So, it seems,{ at the moment } that the end has been getting squashed upwards into the sort of void / scalloped area

 

So maybe I found oot what it was.

 

At moment no cam t, tek piks,

so will use this of the interweb,

its that bit just after the ball, to the threads, its less on 1 an 12

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=rocker+arm+adjuster+screws&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCqqaxuOPSAhVmC8AKHcnIAtUQ_AUICSgC&biw=984&bih=573#imgrc=pSfxX01xty6vJM:

 

M

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