Valve Lashing...

[F1loco]

So new needles are in the carbs, got it running sweet and was going to check the valve clearances next, well, b/c I never have since I bought the '64. Question, how exacting is this? Reason being, I was running through them, cold, .010" as the target. I noticed, as best I could, when a valve spring would be fully compressed, subtract from 9, then count from front to back to get to the adjustment valve. I notice for instance when #3 was down all the way, the valve clearance on #6 was actually .007", but if I just got #3 beyond fully down and edge of coming back up, .010" was attainable? Does this make since? Is it as best you can guess when a valve is fully compressed? We are only talking thousands of inches here. Or am I totaling messing up and count from behind the compressed valve 6, which would put me at #1, but if that's the case, my valves are completely messed up right now.

 

Also noticed a bunch of crap around the lip of the holes where the rods go down - looks to be possibly Indian Shellack? Kind of brownish, sloppy and peeling in spots on the head. Should I be concerned? Thinking this could be the root cause of the rod pin leak I've noticed, especially once it is hot and warmed up. Attaching a couple of pics.

 

 

 

 

[Motorsport Mickey]

Hi there F1loco,

 

See you've made a few posts but a lot of us attach a name also...just seems more personable.

 

Yunno, seems to me a lot of what we mess with on cars swings between two extremes, on one hand we have certain tolerances that are quoted and sometimes we think...arrgh the hell with it by guess and by god will do it, and sometimes we are wrong and the tolerance or setting does need to be highly accurate, say with the liner heights on the engine. Then again we agonise over other settings when if truth be known be known a certain...variability although not ideal doesn't really give problems when you use the car...and that's what this item is in setting the valve clearances.

 

Without going to extremes and screwing the tappets (rocker arms) down so tight there is no clearances and the valve is permanently open and the other extreme where the tappet is that sloppy it allows the push rod to bounce out of connection with the rocker arm, there is a setting range where for normal road use... what the hell it will work just fine and unless you agonise over it the engine will work happily for years. that's where we are here.

As you say using the rule of 9 when valve 8 is fully depressed you set valve 1, the eight and the 1 making the 9 ..right, and so you run through the rest of the equations. 7 + 2, 6 +3 etc etc all adding up to make the 9. Pretty simple stuff unless you're using a more exotic camshaft where an inlet need to be set at 15 and an exhaust needs setting differently say at 23 thou, but again as long as you identify the various valve stems between inlet and exhaust (the manifold tracks give a good clue here) you can set the valves ok.

Sometimes the rotation of the engine to gauge when the valve is fully depressed is a little difficult to see, the actual downward movement is very slight over what seems a lot of camshaft turning because of the mechanics of say 10 degrees before and 10 degrees after being not much. But here's the clue, if it's difficult to tell exactly then it doesn't matter overly whether what you think is a setting of 10 thou is actually a 8 or 9 or even if it's a 13. The variances in numbers will be that small the engine just gives that Burt Lancaster laugh and shrug of the shoulders you know " Ha Ha Ha, what are you looking at Vinnie" and runs happily anyway. So no I don't think any concern.

 

As regards the crap around the push rod tubes inside the rocker cover I think you're probably correct with Indian Shellack or what we would call Wellseal. I see at the bottom of one of those pushrod tubes on the spark plug gallery there's a wet area which is probably oil weeping down the tube and a previous owner maybe wiped some shellack around the top of the tube under the rocker cover there to try and stop it...(Ha) tough call, there's discussions on here on how to do it (try the search)and if you can do it without taking the head off let us know.

Also the oil laying on the top of the engine looks a little "milky" which may be a cause for concern unless if you run a hundred miles and then take off the rocker cover and it all cleans up.

 

Mick Richards

Edited February 25, 2017 by Motorsport Mickey

[littlejim]

Mick makes a good point at the start. Some settings have a range where things still work even if perfection has been missed.

One of my non-mechanically minded mates used to drive to work in an Isuzu Bellet.

At each red light the bloke in the traffic lane alongside, would wind down his window and yell out "hey mate your tappets are loose."

After two years of this I think he learnt what a tappet was.

After leaving the Service and going into private practice he solved the problem by buying new Mercs on a regular basis.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

I like the baffle above the rockers to reduce/stop oil spray from the rocker arms going up the oil filler hole, and thus leaking out.

 

The gunge around the push rod holes looks a tad like oil/water mix - does the engine use water?

 

As Mick says the '9' rule is appropriate for our 4 cylinder engines to check adjust the tappet/rocker clearances.

(The engine was originally built using SAE American sized nuts and bolts ie AF I note you are using a 14 mm wrench that fits rather than the correct 9/16"AF item.)

 

There is a lot of perceived wisdom these days tappet clearances. As you note the book says 0.010" with aluminium pedestals for both inlet and exhaust. but this is with a standard cam. Do you know what cam is fitted in your engine?

 

Have you read this article from Macy's? It is clear and concise. http://www.macysgarage.com/myweb6/valve_adjustment.htm

Cheers

Peter W

Edited February 25, 2017 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[peejay4A]

I use Mark Macy's method. It takes longer than the rule of 9 method though. I did some experiments a while back and consistently found that the Macy method allowed for closing the gap after having run through using the rule of nine.

Edited February 25, 2017 by peejay4A

[F1loco]

Many thanks folks. I will "do my best" then on the valves and call it a day.

 

No, don't know which CAM I have but will assume it's stock as nothing I have discovered done by the previous owner was "special" or "done correctly" - LOL. Certainly didn't see any stampings on the ends or the like identifying it.

 

Yes, the baffle works great, but did notice a bit of milk color on the underside of the cover. I would have thought if the head gasket was leaking it would much more of a mess in there. Wonder if the baffle actually lends to moisture as some of the heat just can't shoot out the fill neck and instead cools a bit on the metal condensing it?

 

Will grab a 9/16 then - thanks.

 

Going to pull the radiator today as well so I can swap the meager spitfire fan with an 8 blade TR6 fan and straighten some fins from my fat knuckles as I turned the fan for the valves.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don

[F1loco]

"The gunge around the push rod holes looks a tad like oil/water mix - does the engine use water?"

 

Definitely not oil/water mix around the push rod holes - its hard and peeling - thank goodness. I think someone tried to cover the weeping push rod pins and patch it.

[RogerH]

Hi Don,

when you refer to pushrod pins are these the silver tubes that the rods go up/down in.

If so resealing them is virtually impossible without removal of the head and/or tubes.

 

Roger

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

"The gunge around the push rod holes looks a tad like oil/water mix - does the engine use water?"

 

Definitely not oil/water mix around the push rod holes - its hard and peeling - thank goodness. I think someone tried to cover the weeping push rod pins and patch it.

Sorry I missed your terminology for the push rod tubes, which as Roger states can be devils to seal.

I use a big ball bearing or taper ended punch from above and whack with a nylon or hide mallet to swage the aluminium tube into the head.

 

Peter W

[Chilliman]

Don, if it is a water/oil mix sitting there making that colour it could be worth just having a look at the alloy core plug that sits in the middle & top of the head, they tend to get eaten from the inside and then slowly 'erupt' cause a gradual leak of coolant into the head around the valves spring assembly...

[Guest ntc]

Head gasket or f08 starting to fail

[Motorsport Mickey]

Raise you cracked liner and block lol.

 

Mick Richards

[Guest ntc]

Raise you cracked liner and block lol.

 

Mick Richards

Mick

Good odds

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

F1loco suggests it is epoxy glue - an attempt by PO to stop the leaking down the push rod tubes - it looks that way too.

 

Now don't scare the poor fellow.

 

 

Cheers

Peter W

[monty]

Hi there F1loco,

 

See you've made a few posts but a lot of us attach a name also...just seems more personable.

 

Yunno, seems to me a lot of what we mess with on cars swings between two extremes, on one hand we have certain tolerances that are quoted and sometimes we think...arrgh the hell with it by guess and by god will do it, and sometimes we are wrong and the tolerance or setting does need to be highly accurate, say with the liner heights on the engine. Then again we agonise over other settings when if truth be known be known a certain...variability although not ideal doesn't really give problems when you use the car...and that's what this item is in setting the valve clearances.

 

Without going to extremes and screwing the tappets (rocker arms) down so tight there is no clearances and the valve is permanently open and the other extreme where the tappet is that sloppy it allows the push rod to bounce out of connection with the rocker arm, there is a setting range where for normal road use... what the hell it will work just fine and unless you agonise over it the engine will work happily for years. that's where we are here.

As you say using the rule of 9 when valve 8 is fully depressed you set valve 1, the eight and the 1 making the 9 ..right, and so you run through the rest of the equations. 7 + 2, 6 +3 etc etc all adding up to make the 9. Pretty simple stuff unless you're using a more exotic camshaft where an inlet need to be set at 15 and an exhaust needs setting differently say at 23 thou, but again as long as you identify the various valve stems between inlet and exhaust (the manifold tracks give a good clue here) you can set the valves ok.

Sometimes the rotation of the engine to gauge when the valve is fully depressed is a little difficult to see, the actual downward movement is very slight over what seems a lot of camshaft turning because of the mechanics of say 10 degrees before and 10 degrees after being not much. But here's the clue, if it's difficult to tell exactly then it doesn't matter overly whether what you think is a setting of 10 thou is actually a 8 or 9 or even if it's a 13. The variances in numbers will be that small the engine just gives that Burt Lancaster laugh and shrug of the shoulders you know " Ha Ha Ha, what are you looking at Vinnie" and runs happily anyway. So no I don't think any concern.

 

As regards the crap around the push rod tubes inside the rocker cover I think you're probably correct with Indian Shellack or what we would call Wellseal. I see at the bottom of one of those pushrod tubes on the spark plug gallery there's a wet area which is probably oil weeping down the tube and a previous owner maybe wiped some shellack around the top of the tube under the rocker cover there to try and stop it...(Ha) tough call, there's discussions on here on how to do it (try the search)and if you can do it without taking the head off let us know.

Also the oil laying on the top of the engine looks a little "milky" which may be a cause for concern unless if you run a hundred miles and then take off the rocker cover and it all cleans up.

 

Mick Richards

 

Useful points there Mick. My cam is a Racetorations item with quite larger than standard clearances & I am always a little worried that the recommended gaps are quite a bit wider & so I struggle to get them 'spot on' as I certainly do not want them wider any more!

So, with your comments in mind is it ok to be a little more relaxed with larger gaps too? I do worry a little when I hear tappet noise because I guess, due to the different gaps recommended.

Cheers & thanks.

 

[F1loco]

Moving the project along ...

 

Was swapping to a TR6 fan blade but don't want to necessarily reverse the direction. Need to find a TR3 and/or billet 2" shorter on the extension. Question, though, what is the supply for the crank bolt as I am assuming I'll need one 2" shorter as well? Also, is there a trick to loosening the crank bolt? I'll tackle that one tomorrow, but while I got it all apart, figure I might as well do it correctly and be done with it.

 

"Don, if it is a water/oil mix sitting there making that colour it could be worth just having a look at the alloy core plug that sits in the middle & top of the head, they tend to get eaten from the inside and then slowly 'erupt' cause a gradual leak of coolant into the head around the valves spring assembly..."

 

Which allow core plug?

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by F1loco

[Chilliman]

Right in the middle of your photo between the forth & fith valves, that is a large screw-in alloy core plug that sits above the water chamber.

[F1loco]

Looks pretty tight and fresh, no?

[Motorsport Mickey]

As we said in post number 2 if you go for a good drive (couple of hours) and the milkyness disappears from the oil under the rocker cover it's most probably condensation forming inside upon the anti splash plate Peter W commented on, or other more general condensation in the engine. As long as you are not losing /using water at an unusual rate and there is no milkyness on the dipstick from the sump it's very likely non of the other more serious maladies we outlined above from various other posts apply.

 

Crank bolt will most likely have 120 lb ft put on it and if it's been there a few years it won't want to come off. Put gearbox into 2nd gear, handbrake on, chocs under the wheels and an impact gun capable of up to 450nm will spin the bolt out (use a good impact socket).

 

John has pinned where the possible leaking core plug is under the rocker cover.

 

Mick Richards

[F1loco]

Debating on the crank pulley/cooling system -

 

1. Install a 3/8 belt kit with aluminum pulleys and REVCO fan kit - though I can only get negative ground here in the States which would require conversion - which I understand isn't all that difficult - but would the Petronix I have (positive earth) be compatible by merely swapping the wires?

 

2. Found a TR3 extension, do the pulley swap, and simply install the TR6 fan in it's correct configuration?

 

3. Simply invert the TR6 fan and call it a day - that said I live in FL and it can get quite warm sitting in traffic.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

My money says toss the mechanical fan in the back of the garage and fit an electric one. More blow at low vehicle speed.

 

Petronix unit I believe is polarity sensitive so you will need to stay +ve earth, or go for a replacement -ve earth item That is if you go to an alternator, because you feel all those electrical accessories like an engine cooling fan are sucking too many amps from your battery .

 

I think the TR3 extension will touch the steering rack - just a vague memory. Jack up the engine mounts with spacer washers.....so you can get the fan belt on.

Peter W

[F1loco]

Thanks, do I need to worry about a generator swap to alternator to go electric fan route?

 

Rimmer Brothers will ship to US so I can get a positive earth kit shipped for a mere $40.00 shipping ... each. Petronix unit will set me back at least $90 and an alternator...well I don't want to think about it ... Still don't understand the $30pound mark up for the positive earth v. negative system ...

[Motorsport Mickey]

 

Hi there F1loco,

 

See you've made a few posts but a lot of us attach a name also...just seems more personable.

 

Yunno, seems to me a lot of what we mess with on cars swings between two extremes, on one hand we have certain tolerances that are quoted and sometimes we think...arrgh the hell with it by guess and by god will do it, and sometimes we are wrong and the tolerance or setting does need to be highly accurate, say with the liner heights on the engine. Then again we agonise over other settings when if truth be known be known a certain...variability although not ideal doesn't really give problems when you use the car...and that's what this item is in setting the valve clearances.

 

Without going to extremes and screwing the tappets (rocker arms) down so tight there is no clearances and the valve is permanently open and the other extreme where the tappet is that sloppy it allows the push rod to bounce out of connection with the rocker arm, there is a setting range where for normal road use... what the hell it will work just fine and unless you agonise over it the engine will work happily for years. that's where we are here.

As you say using the rule of 9 when valve 8 is fully depressed you set valve 1, the eight and the 1 making the 9 ..right, and so you run through the rest of the equations. 7 + 2, 6 +3 etc etc all adding up to make the 9. Pretty simple stuff unless you're using a more exotic camshaft where an inlet need to be set at 15 and an exhaust needs setting differently say at 23 thou, but again as long as you identify the various valve stems between inlet and exhaust (the manifold tracks give a good clue here) you can set the valves ok.

Sometimes the rotation of the engine to gauge when the valve is fully depressed is a little difficult to see, the actual downward movement is very slight over what seems a lot of camshaft turning because of the mechanics of say 10 degrees before and 10 degrees after being not much. But here's the clue, if it's difficult to tell exactly then it doesn't matter overly whether what you think is a setting of 10 thou is actually a 8 or 9 or even if it's a 13. The variances in numbers will be that small the engine just gives that Burt Lancaster laugh and shrug of the shoulders you know " Ha Ha Ha, what are you looking at Vinnie" and runs happily anyway. So no I don't think any concern.

 

As regards the crap around the push rod tubes inside the rocker cover I think you're probably correct with Indian Shellack or what we would call Wellseal. I see at the bottom of one of those pushrod tubes on the spark plug gallery there's a wet area which is probably oil weeping down the tube and a previous owner maybe wiped some shellack around the top of the tube under the rocker cover there to try and stop it...(Ha) tough call, there's discussions on here on how to do it (try the search)and if you can do it without taking the head off let us know.

Also the oil laying on the top of the engine looks a little "milky" which may be a cause for concern unless if you run a hundred miles and then take off the rocker cover and it all cleans up.

 

Mick Richards

 

Useful points there Mick. My cam is a Racetorations item with quite larger than standard clearances & I am always a little worried that the recommended gaps are quite a bit wider & so I struggle to get them 'spot on' as I certainly do not want them wider any more!

So, with your comments in mind is it ok to be a little more relaxed with larger gaps too? I do worry a little when I hear tappet noise because I guess, due to the different gaps recommended.

Cheers & thanks.

 

As always any variation is a question of degree, if the Racetorations camshafts have what you consider to be a large clearance then carry on and maybe try to set them at 1 thou tighter, all that will be compromised is the power delivery by a very small amount.

But bear in mind there are often variations in tappet setting amounts across the different grinds preferred by designers, and they would not sell them if such a small deviation of setting them 1 thou looser made the rocker settings suspect for reliability.

 

Mick Richards

Edited February 27, 2017 by Motorsport Mickey

[monty]

As always any variation is a question of degree, if the Racetorations camshafts have what you consider to be a large clearance then carry on and maybe try to set them at 1 thou tighter, all that will be compromised is the power delivery by a very small amount.But bear in mind there are often variations in tappet setting amounts across the different grinds preferred by designers, and they would not sell them if such a small deviation of setting them 1 thou looser made the rocker settings suspect for reliability.Mick Richards

Thanks again Mick. Yes, I did set them slightly tighter last year as you suggest & will do a check this year before the season starts. Went around 2 thou tighter than recommended but Darryl seemed to think that would be OK. Still a bit of a rattle though.

Cheers.