rear crankshaft oil seal conversion revisited

[martin cregan]

I appreciate this topic has been discussed before, a quick search reveals a discussion thread in 2008.

 

I am hoping there might be some historical record since of the requirement to drill the rear crank seal with two additional drain holes either side of the existing hole.

 

There is conflicting info from the main 3 suppliers on the subject, Rimmers now suggest drilling as a precautionary requirement, whereas Revington and Moss do not.

 

Does anyone know if these outlets supply the same seals, or are Moss and Revington superior and don't require the additional drain holes drilled to relieve the pressure on the seal ?

 

My engineer has carried out this conversion for 20 odd years on various marques and wasn't surprised when I requested the drilling.

 

Is there a definitive answer ?

 

thanks

 

Martin

 

 

[Fireman049]

Hi Martin ~

 

If you PM me your email address I'll send you the fitting instructions for the rear oil seal conversion.

I fitted the Mad Marx oil seal conversion and I did drill the extra drain holes in the end cap.

This helps reduce the pressure on the oil seal.

 

Tom.

[RogerH]

Hi Martin,

on myTR4 I fitted the Rover lip seal mod that requires the crank grinding to make fit.

This also requires the extra drain holes as you describe. A pain in the bum but easily do'able.

 

I have also fitted the Christian Marx lip seal to my 4A - that is so much easier to fit and does not require the extra drain holes.

 

If you haven't bought the seal yet then go for the Christian Marx item - excellent kit.

 

Roger

[Motorsport Mickey]

I should try rather more than a quick search,

 

Searching for "Crankshaft rear oil seal" There are two pages of threads which comes up here dating back to 2004 from the TR4/4a forum , not all of the posts may be specifically about the rear seal but worth sifting for those that do.

http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&fromMainBar=1

 

Also from the TR2/3/3a/3b forum another 2 pages back to 2004, again I should read and pick out the appropriate posts, not sure if anything can be added to what's been covered in the threads -pretty comprehensive.

 

"Spoiler alert" the Christian Marx rear seal which doesn't require the crankshaft scroll to be ground off seems now to be coming out as well favoured.

 

Mick Richards

Edited January 3, 2017 by Motorsport Mickey

[martin cregan]

thanks Guys , I have already bought the Rimmer supplied seal although I had heard of the Marx seal but thought it was too new without much history.

 

I have an engineering company who are doing the work as I previously mentioned and he feels quite confident. I have also asked Rimmers to comment further as to the need to drill with their seal.

 

Thanks Tom for the offer of the instructions but I have these already I just needed a bit of reassurance

 

Martin

[stuart]

I had heard of the Marx seal but thought it was too new without much history.

 

Martin

That seal has been around for some years now and as it was developed by a race engineer it is the best available and has very good history, its a fit and forget solution unlike most others.

Stuart.

[rcreweread]

Hi all - the question I think Martin wanted answering initially was with regard to non Christian Marx seal - these are sold by a number of reputable suppliers, amongst whom there appears to be a difference of opinion as to whether or not the adjacent main bearing cap needs to have additional holes drilled in it or not.

 

So:

1) does anyone know if the different suppliers are all supplying the same seal/kit?

 

2) If so,why are some suppliers are saying yes you need to drill the main bearing cap ( My kit from TR shop says this) and some aren't, when the kits all effectively do the same thing?

 

3) If not, whose kits say what? As stated above, kit supplied by TR Shop recommends drilling the main bearing cap and provides diagramatic instructions on how this needs to be done, Martin implies Rimmers say yes, but Revington and Moss say no.

 

Is it just that by drilling the cap, you are doing a belt and braces job to give the seal the best possible chance not to leak, although I have to say I would have thought a seal either seals or it doesn't and the fact that there is lots of oil splashing around in the vicinity shouldn't make a difference - then again I'm not an engineer! Maybe thats where Moss and Revington are coming from.

 

Confused but cheers

 

Rich

[RogerH]

Hi Martin/Rich,

in fitting the large Rover lip seal the crank scroll needs to be machined down.

This removes the scroll oil seal thus allowing more oil into the area where the lip seal sits.

 

By adding extra drain holes should allow the extra oil to drain away and not overload the seal.

Indeed seals should seal - but don't forget this seal is split to allow fitting (although the split is at the 12-o-clock position)

And it has a greater amount of oil to contend with.

 

The extra holes cause no problem - even if you refit a standard crank.

 

The Christian Marx seal does not need the extra drain holes because the original scroll oil seal keeps the volume down to original levels.

 

The Rover lip seal works - make sure the split is at the 12-o-clock position with the engine in the uprigth position.

 

Roger

Edited January 4, 2017 by RogerH

[Ade-TR4]

Hi all,

 

A quick question to those that have fitted the Christian Marx version.

 

Is it possible to fit it without removing the engine? Or is this just making it extra awkward?

 

Cheers

Ade

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Hi all,

 

A quick question to those that have fitted the Christian Marx version.

 

Is it possible to fit it without removing the engine? Or is this just making it extra awkward?

 

Cheers

Ade

Centralising the sealing block halves with the crank in situ would challenge I suspect. Let alone looping the seal round the crank without damaging

Peter W

Edited January 4, 2017 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[RogerH]

Hi Ade,

the major problem is that you need to insert a mandrel between the two Ali seal holders in order to get the seal concentric.

 

It maybe possible to get all the parts where they are needed and use the crank to centre the seal.

 

PM Fireman Tom he may have done this.

Roger

 

PS - Just had a thought - how would you get the scroll seal Ali sections out in order to fit the new seal holder.

Edited January 4, 2017 by RogerH

[Chilliman]

 

 

Is it possible to fit it without removing the engine? Or is this just making it extra awkward?

Ade, the short answer you're looking for is NO

 

For info I have just fitted one and so far very pleased with the lack of oil slick.

[Ade-TR4]

Thought as much...

 

hey-ho, lots of spannering in the offing!!!

 

Ade

[RogerH]

Hi Ade,

PM Fireman Tom he may know something extra.

 

If you do have to remove the crank then it may be a good idea to remove the engine and do it on the bench - it really is easier.

 

Is your standard scroll seal leaking enough to worry about.?

 

Roger

[ChrisR-4A]

New engines weep, old worn engines leak.

I waited until I had the complete engine rebuilt before fitting a lip seal, meanwhile I reduced the leaking considerably by venting the engine from rocker cover and block to atmosphere and dumping the unnecessary pcv valve.

Chris

[Fireman049]

I used my crankshaft to centralise the seal. I had my engine out for a complete rebuild at the time.

 

Tom.

 

[Ade-TR4]

Thanks for the photo Tom - Very helpful!

Ade

[Ade-TR4]

Hi Roger & Chris,

There's a bit more oil on the garage floor than I remember previously - Then again, I have painted the floor recently, so maybe it's just more visible!!!

 

Thanks for the replies, always appreciated

 

Ade

[AndrewMAshton]

Hello, hijacking the thread here, Tom, I notice you have painted the inside of your block, as you can't see/polish it when all back together it must be for something other than aesthetics, just wondering!, thanks, Andrew

[Britishbest]

I am starting an engine rebuild shortly and I plan to use the Christian Marx seal which I'll probably get from the TR shop.

 

Sorry if its a silly question but I thought I read somewhere the Marx seal can be uased in addition to the standard seal for belt and braces....or did I imagine this?

[RogerH]

Hi,

if you look at Toms pic in post #16 you will see this can't be the case.

You need the new (blue) seal holder and this does not have the scroll on it.

 

If you machined the original ali scroll to fit the seal there would be no scroll left.

 

However if you fit this seal you will not need the scroll. The CM seal does work.

 

Roger

[Fireman049]

Hi Andrew ~

 

The is a special oil/petrol resistant paint. This seals up any porous castings etc. and aids oil

drainage. It's obtainable from Frost's and is called 'Glyptal' Oil and Petrol resistant paint.

 

Tom.

 

[Britishbest]

Hi,

if you look at Toms pic in post #16 you will see this can't be the case.

You need the new (blue) seal holder and this does not have the scroll on it.

 

If you machined the original ali scroll to fit the seal there would be no scroll left.

 

However if you fit this seal you will not need the scroll. The CM seal does work.

 

Roger

Many thanks for the clarification Roger

[Scotsman]

I am assuming the Christian Marx kit being discussed here is the same as the Mad Marx kit. If so, based on the discussion so far on whether drain holes need to be made, I am wondering if they have changed their installation requirements. The instructions they provide clearly state that the stock aluminium seal ring needs to be modified including enlarging the drain hole. See links below. I am assuming that the aluminium ring seal they provide already has the required modifications..... yes/no?

http://www.tr4-racing.de/eng/madmarx-racing.html

http://www.tr4-racing.de/download/splitseal.pdf

 

Richard

[mike3md]

Richard,

 

The MM kit includes a new ally seal ring (2 pieces), so no need to modify/use the original pair. Do make sure the drain hole is not blocked by sealant when you assemble.

 

I don't know why the instructions haven't been updated.

 

Mike