Spin on Filter Adapter- Filter Blow Offf

[Mike C]

I had an unnerving experience yesterday and seek advice. My 1969 TR6 is fitted with a Mocal TT1286 spin on oil filter adapter. Yesterday I fitted a Wix 51516 ( same as Fram PH3600) filter after an oil change and started the engine on idle to check for leaks, followed by a higher speed run to increase oil pressure for a recheck . At about 4000 RPM and 90-100 PSI oil pressure the filter blew off the adapter. This engine has always had a high cold oil pressure. When I checked the filter I found that the filter thread was only engaging the adapter thread by 1-1.25 turns . Is this normal ?

I checked the oil system PRV and noticed slight grooves in the plunger stem due to, I presume, vibrating against the spring - so I've ordered a new OEM spring and plunger set.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Steves_TR6]

That doesnt sound right Mike

 

My engine also registers 100psi for the first few minutes.

I always use quality filters such as K&N hp2009.

 

Regards

 

Steve

[RobH]

The filter should screw on quite a long way Mike. Have you compared the shape of the new filter versus the old one? The PH3600 looks to have a concave top, i.e. the threaded bit is very recessed. Perhaps that is why it doesn't engage properly?

 

[Mike C]

Thanks Guys. The filter was selected from this list-https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjKouW1-OfQAhWLzLwKHctXCEoQFggbMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mossmotors.com%2Fforum%2Fforums%2Fthread%2F6944.aspx&usg=AFQjCNEYlEYCjauayAAyYsBbnUlQMnTqXg&sig2=P-WrQ3mE3VGekLNve7IN2Q

The list includes the K&N HP2009, but I selected the Wix 51516 as it is readily available in Australia for US cars. I used to use an Australian Ryco Z 134 made for Nissan 720 series light trucks but this is getting hard to find - when I checked the old one it did screw on maybe half a turn more than the Wix - I may have been lucky all these years.

I agree Rob - the concave top looks wrong for the adapter thread. The adapter came with a Unipart GFE116 but I can't remember what it's top looked like as I discarded it due to the large diameter fouling the clutch master cylinder.

Steve , can you remember how many turns you get on your K&N filter ? I can get them from the UK.

 

Mike

Edited December 9, 2016 by Mike C

[Mike C]

Thanks Steve. I did a bit of research on the K&N HP2009 and came up with a few negative reports on a recent production change to the filter-http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f312/careful-new-kn-2009-oil-filter-160298/, https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiJ7PCosujQAhUHjLwKHQ9-D6YQFggoMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boefab.com%2Fblogs%2Ftech%2F72880067-k-n-hp-2009-filter-comparison&usg=AFQjCNGQBClwF4rSPyvLNcCzVLq5un991A&sig2=mvCqgEwy913MOuq55-n4SQ.

Thanks for the advice. K&N usually make good stuff but maybe their filter technology is slipping.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Mike C

[AndrewP]

Mike,

 

You can get Ryco filters that work just fine.

 

Search and ye shall find

 

http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/26080-spin-on-oil-filter-part-nos/?hl=ryco

 

Hope it helps.

[Mike C]

Thanks Andrew. I found the linked page after I added Z418 to the search terms. I appreciate your current confirmation that a Ryco Z37 or Z 418 is the go. I'll get a Z37. To round this discussion off I checked the depth of the top of the threads below the level of the oil seal in both the Ryco Z134 I was using and the Wix 51516 supplied by a US car filter specialist in your neck of the woods. The Wix thread is approximately 1.5mm more recessed into the body - so no wonder it blew off.

Once again thanks.

Mike C

Edited December 10, 2016 by Mike C

[Mike C]

For what it's worth. The Wix filter in my spin on adapter could not meet the thread engagement criteria detailed in this Champion Filters Bulletin, due to the extra thread recession in the body. I suspect that's why it blew off.

INFORMATION BULLETIN

Subject: Short Oil Filter Mounting Base Studs

Date: June 2006

Many engine manufacturers, in an effort to reduce cost and save weight have reduced the

length of the oil filter mounting stud to the bare minimum. This trend was first noticed in

the 1980’s and continues today.

All Champ/Firestone oil filter designs have been checked for thread engagement on

multiple applications. Initial thread engagement equal to or greater than 1 ½ turns, at full

gasket contact, is acceptable. All Champ/Firestone spin-on oil filters meet this

requirement.

As with all spin-on oil filters, the specific installation instructions must be followed. Most

filters require at least 2/3 additional turn, after initial gasket contact with the mounting

base; some require as much as an additional 1 ¼ turns. Refer to the oil filter label on the

oil filter for the specific installation instructions.

The correct Champ/Firestone filter will function properly, when installed according to the

installation instructions.

[JohnG]

At about 4000 RPM and 90-100 PSI oil pressure the filter blew off the adapter. This engine has always had a high cold oil pressure. When I checked the filter I found that the filter thread was only engaging the adapter thread by 1-1.25 turns . Is this normal ?

 

Mike

No, absolutely not.

 

At 100psi, I would want a minimum 2.5 full turns of thread and preferably 3.

 

The 'book' may say different, I haven't read it, but, I would rather go with experience.

Edited December 10, 2016 by wjgco

[Steves_TR6]

Hi Mike

 

I did read the 'negative' comments on the K&N filters but its a brand that i trust so i have continued.

 

Not sure how many turns i get, but its quite a few as it seems to rotate for ages beofe it drops off during an oil change.

 

Regards

 

Steve

[Mike C]

Thanks for your comments. With the Ryco Z 37 filter as recommended by Australian users Andrew and Andy I can get 2 turns of thread on with maximum hand tightness. I don't like it but this has worked in the past.

 

I was not aware of how little thread engagement there is on the Mocal TT 1286 adapter. The Wix filter had possibly half to 3/4 of a turn less engagement- so that model's out.

 

I'd appreciate it if anyone knows of differing filter stub lengths on the Mocal adapter-as far as I'm aware they are all the identical.

 

Steve, I ran a vernier over the filters I have on the bench. For the distance between the top of the gasket and the top of the thread connection I measured the following:

Ryco Z 134 (used) = 0.6mm

Wix 51516(used)= 2.0mm

RycoZ37 (new)=2mm

Can you remember if the K&N filter was close to being proud of the gasket when new? I'd like to get 3 threads of engagement if possible.

 

Regards,

Mike C

[Steves_TR6]

I have a new K&N in the garage so measured it

 

The screw thread is some 5mm from the gasket edge, so doesnt sound like it will work for you.

 

Photo attached.

 

I question the spin on filter adapter, is it the right one?, as ive neever had an issue with any filter not screwing on enough as you are experiencing.

 

The thread on the adapter doesnt seem long enough to me.

 

Steve

[Mike C]

Hi Steve,

 

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. The adapter was purchased in 2004 from Pickard's of Melbourne, a local Triumph specialist. The adapter was supposedly suitable for a TR6, but with the short threaded length I can't see how any spin on filter will work with it unless the low level of thread engagements is acceptable.

 

I'll contact Pickards on Monday to see if they can shed any light on what's going on.

 

Regards,

 

Mike C

[poolboy]

The nipple in my Mocal, onto which the spin on filter is screwed, is adjustable for length extension. Perhaps yours is too and it was screwed too deeply into the Mocal's housing.

[Mike C]

Thanks Poolboy . That what might have happened to my adapter. I can't recall any thread engagement problem when I first installed it 12 or so years ago. I'll have a look at the nipple later today

[graeme]

Mike,

 

I think it is possible the nipple has come loose and screwed itself in. I have inspected the one I have on the shelf for my 250 and photos below. The nipple seems to be locked with thread locker and extends from the base 3/4" and approx 1/2" from the gasket face. I have a Fram 3600 and it took 4 1/4 turns to touch the face then would require another 2/3 turn to seal.

 

 

Thread just engaged.

 

 

4 turns

 

 

Hope this helps you.

 

Cheers

 

Graeme

Edited December 11, 2016 by graeme

[Mike C]

Thanks Graeme. For me your photos are priceless.The nipple on your adapter has far more engagement than mine. From the photograph (which hopefully attaches) , you can see that I have probably 3-4 threads in total above the contact face of the canister. Once allowances are made for the gasket I can now see that getting 2 threads to engage is about as far as I'll get. The threads at the start of the nipple seem to be have been machined off at manufacture to form some type of lead in for the filter cartridge.

 

I tried to remove the nipple using copious amounts of heat and it wouldn't budge. I'll keep working on this but if worse comes to the worst I'll have to buy another adapter-provided I can get an adapter with a full thread nipple like yours. If I can't I'll have to have the adapter machined out and a new threaded pipe nipple fitted.

 

Now I've had a close look at the adapter I can't drive the car with the possibility that the filter might blow off at any moment.

 

Thanks to everyone for their help'

 

Mike C

[Mike C]

Looking at what oil filter adapters are available on the current market . It appears that some have the fully threaded nipple, like Graeme's, and some have the initial threads removed to form a lead in for the filter, like mine. There's no way I would touch another adapter with the initial threaded section machined off .

[graeme]

Mike,

 

Mine came from Moss Europe(part # TT1286), if that is any help to you.

 

Cheers

 

Graeme

[Mike C]

Thanks Graeme.

 

Mine came from local British car specialist and also has the part number TT1286. There are definitely two types of nipple fitted to these adapters. I really don't want to pay for one unless I've confirmed that it has the fully threaded nipple. If I can find a local supplier I'll visit their store with a spare filter to confirm it fits securely. Your photos showed me that there was no way mine would have been reliable, and the consequences of dropping a filter on a long run do not bear thinking about.

 

Regards,

 

Mike C

[Steves_TR6]

Hi Mike

 

You really only need the 'nipple' which is just a bit of hollow threaded tube.

 

A local engineering firm might be able to make you one ?

 

I'd be tempted to unscrew the nipple and see what your favourite garage thinks?

Or ebay is your friend.... see attached photo.

 

Steve

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Steves_TR6

[Mike C]

Thanks Steve.

 

I tried to unscrew the nipple following Poolboy's comment. The nipple is made of really soft steel (?). It won't unscrew easily even when a fair amount of heat is applied - just distorts in the Vice-Grip jaws..

 

I've though of welding a large nut on it then using a 3/4 drive socket on it. It might come to that but I don't want to leave any latent problem in the adapter head which may happen if I really get stuck into it.

 

I have a shop that can do what you suggest but the cost will probably be in the same ball park as a new adapter - but it would be much better made- as you suggest I'd make the nipple out of ss hollow bar with a 3/4-16 UNF thread.

 

I'll see what I can find when the Triumph parts suppliers open tomorrow.

 

Regards,

 

Mike C

[Waldi]

Thread size is 3/4" x 16 tpi according the K&N website.

Do not specify NPT, that is tapered.

I think this is called a "straight threaded nipple".

Standard 3/4" pipe thread is 14 tpi, so it looks like this is a "special".

[Steves_TR6]

Hi Mike

 

On balance i think i'd be buying a new adapter.

 

You rightly want to see ot is 'full thread' before buying though.

 

If it helps i can look at a moss one, im nearish to moss, and post it if its suitable?

 

Obviously it'd be easier to buy locally if you can!

 

Steve

[Mike C]

Thanks Waldi,

 

My preference is to buy a new assembly. I'll check the thread more carefully if I need to pursue reworking the old one- the Ryco filters that I can get easily in Australia are NPT.

 

Regards,

 

Mike C