Hi-Torque starter installation

[dawn]

Hi everyone, has anyone installed one of these? Moss motors, hi-torque starters? I have a question or two. ( electrical ) Dog ate the instructions that came with it

I've installed it already and now I realize i'm not sure how it works I am going to have to take it back out again, no big deal, and have a better look at it

I don't know whether I am going to use its own solenoid ( if it has one ) or whether I will use the original Triumph start solenoid with it . I imagine I could do either , any advice?

I've written to Moss asking for installation instructions

bear in mind I am changing to Negative ground as well.

Thank you

Dawn

[Richardtr3a]

I have a modern starter and it looks like yours.

 

There is no need to take it out. Connect your existing solenoid to the terminal on the new motor using the same cable as before.

 

Your starter problems will all be over very soon.

 

Good luck, Richard & H.

[Lebro]

These are pre-engage starters, & have their own solenoid. this not only pre-engages the bendix, but also connects the motor to 12V.

2 Choices - use existing solenoid as is, but add a link wire from main terminal on the starter to the smaller push on one.

or, move the main battery cable from one terminal of your old solenoid to the other, so it is connected to the main starter cable, then remove, & extend the small wire on the old solenoid, & connect it now to the push on terminal on the new starter. ( & don't fit the link wire above.)

 

Bob.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Lebro

[RogerH]

Hi Dawn,

I think you will have to remove the starter as it looks upside down. The engaging mechanism should be on top.

The stud for the thick power lead needs to be on the outside to gain access etc etc.

 

As Bob says you can use your existing solenoid (useful to have if it has the external starter button)

Connect a short wire/cable from where the main battery joins the starter to the small spade end fitting.

 

When you turn the key the original solenoid will close.

This supplies 12V power to the new starter.

This in turn provides 12v to the new starter solenoid and pulls it in.

The starter spins and the car bursts into life.

 

Roger

[ianc]

Like Roger, I favour retention of the original solenoid as it allows one to spin the engine single-handed with the bonnet raised.

And it requires no modifications to the wiring.

Ian Cornish

[RobH]

I have the Moss one and as Roger says, yours is fitted upside down. Mine is wired in using just the original starter lead from the solenoid - there is no separate spade terminal on the one I have as the link seems to be integral. Polarity does not matter - mine has worked with both positive and negative earth with no changes.

[Graham Harris]

I don't think it will go any other way, if you turn it over the power cable will be underneath or are my angles up the creek.

[RobH]

Hmm - having looked at the photo again you are right Graham - the layout is different to mine so perhaps Moss US provides a different unit from Moss UK or else the design has changed? It does look different from the GEU4412X illustrated in the catalogue. On mine with the motor the other way up the connection is at the top but on the engine-block side. Having said that, if the connection on this one really should be underneath it just needs a longer cable.

 

I believe the pinion is central and symmetrical with the mounting lugs (?) so provided nothing fouls anywhere it ought to work either way up. Its just that with the motor casing hanging down it will get close to the exhaust pipe and might get a bit hot.

[dawn]

[Thank you guys very much. Okay so I am going to keep the original solenoid in the equation. I like the idea of a local operating button.

As far as upside down,.. I believe that is the only way it fits , how I have it, but I am going to take it out and see. I will fit the jumper wire while it is out .

I have to buy a new ground strap for my battery and I see that Moss has one with a battery switch on it, has anyone got one of those or is it just another unnecessary connection that could fail?

Also, I have been researching the idea of a coolant expansion tank, found one I like at CXracing. It will give me just about 2 liters extra, probably one and a half because it won't be full will it.

Anyway I've attached a shot of the place I think it will go, have a look and see what you think, I won't be running heater hoses so I think that is prime real estate. Xtank will be same height as radiator. attachment=19563:expansion tk 1.jpg]

Thanks for all this help I'm going gangbusters on the car right now

Dawn

[dawn]

someones going to say "don't you think a metal one would be better"

[dawn]

Hi Roger, I've tried to take a better shot here, but see if you agree, it looks to me like If I turned the unit the other way up then the motor would hit that web on the engine block as the offset would lean inwards. Let me know what you think, I will take it off and try it if you don't agree.

Dawn

[peejay4A]

Dawn,

That's a much sharper picture and it's clear that you have it fitted properly. You just need to make up the jumper from the 1/4" Lucar connector to the big terminal then run your starter cable up to the existing solenoid. Personally, as I didn't have a solenoid in the kit of parts I inherited I didn't bother with one and ran the red/white wire down to the small connector on my starter. I've never felt the loss of the solenoid and if I need to turn the engine over I use a spanner or a willing assistant.

[dawn]

Thanks Peej, correct me if I'm wrong but but if I use an external ( original ) Solenoid and link out the connection at the new starter then both solenoids are going to operate in series aren't they? its starting to sound a little over engineered with the two solenoids even for the convenience of a local start button. I think I will follow your lead in this and wire the new starter direct

Thanks Dawn

[peejay4A]

Yes if you use the original solenoid both will pull in together. There nothing wrong with that. Personally I wanted to keep things simple especially as I didn't have the original solenoid. If you choose this option just leave out the small jumper wire and run the red/white (I think that's right) wire direct to the small spade connector on the motor.

[stuart]

Be interesting to see how close the exhaust will run with it like that.

Stuart.

[RogerH]

Hi Dawn,

as it is you are right in saying it will not fit 180' turned.

 

However I think you actually have the wrong motor.

 

That motor looks as though it should fit on the other side of the engine.

 

The motor and solenoid can be rotated on its mounting plate - but that will not help. The electrical connections would then be up against the block.

 

Have a look here http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/electrical-system/starting-system/high-torque-starter-motors.html

 

I think you have the motor for the bolt on ring gear (Starter ring on the fly wheel) GEU4412X

However their description of build numbers suggests otherwise !!!!!!!!!

 

Do you know if you have bolt on or shrink on ring gear.

 

Roger

[Lebro]

??????? Bolt on, or shrink on, the motor goes in the same place. Only difference is the number of teeth on the gears - motor for shrink on has 9, bolt on has 10.

 

Bob.

[RogerH]

Hi Bob,

indeed. Why have they turned the motor upside down just because the bendix teeth are different!!!!

 

Very confused.

 

Roger

[Quicksilver]

Dawn.

 

fitting instructions high torque bastuck;

http://www.bastuck.de/00reloaded/media/File/Montageanleitungen/TR/Getriebeanlasser_.pdf

 

Marcel.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Quicksilver

[TorontoTim]

FWIW the starter motor that I have on my TR4 is as described by Roger and is, in effect, the other way up: it's this one: http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/starter-motor-high-torque-201906x.html (UK part # 201906X; USA part # 541-515)

 

Now, I know that Moss says that's for a TR2-TR3A, but it fits perfectly on my 4 and is well out of the way of the engine block and the exhaust. I can even get it off with the exhaust in place.

 

I think a discussion with the Moss-ers might be useful.

Edited August 25, 2016 by TorontoTim

[Graham Harris]

My starter looks the same and it all fits ok on my 3A

Edited August 25, 2016 by Graham Harris

[RogerH]

Hi Dawn,

Here are a couple of pics of my spare SM. It is the GEU4412x. That should be the same as yours.

But mine is orientated with the solenoid on top.

 

As Graham shows the same as yours, there is probably no good reason to panic or change; but it is most odd.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

[Lebro]

 

But mine is orientated with the solenoid on top.

 

 

Roger

I think you will find:

 

That is the motor on top Roger, it is geared to the final drive which is on the end of the solenoid.

 

Bob.

[RogerH]

Hi Bob,

quite so. The solenoid and contactors are on the bottom.

 

Roger

[dawn]

Thanks Roger, yes I can see, completely different starter, both seem quite straightforward wiring, I can see Stuarts concern about the exhaust pipe looks quite close on Grahams installation

Bear in mind Graham is in Australia so the starter is indeed upside down.

Nice job by the way Graham. I've saved that shot

A short piece of exhaust wrap may be the trick just where it runs under the motor. ( On mine I mean of course )

Engine wiring this week , I have a new fuse box coming from Moss and I am going shopping for a good looking covered terminal strip to replace the voltage regulator

Next week I will attack the dash and all its mysteries, I have more gauges, knobs and switches than you can poke a stick at, I bought a donor car with boxes of parts last year from a guy who went mad

A lot more room to work without the heater but a birds nest of wiring nonetheless, I'll post photo's.

Thanks again for all the help.

Dawn