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After splashing out £600 on four 15" 51/2 J alloys and tyres I expected fitting to be a doddle, especially as the suppliers had assured me that standard studs are fine on all the Triumphs they supply alloy wheels for. ( I have of course kept the email).

This is what I found, after two stud threads, and one nut, stripped with hand tightening, on the first wheel I attempted:

Steel wheel, length of stud thread engaged by thread in nut: 17-18mm

Alloy: 8mm. 5.5 turns only.

Triumph presumably designed in 18mm of thread engagment to withstand all reasonable cornering forces on the wheels. So a reduction form 18 to 8mm, to me, is unsafe.

Your thoughts? Am I the first to experience this?

 

 

( More detail:

Studs are standard , length of thread 20mm

Alloy thickness where no nut can engage the thread: 9mm, compared with steel ca 2-3mm. ca 6 to 7mm of engaged thread lost.

Original nuts are threaded right into the conical end- nuts for alloys were not and thread stops 3mm short off the end of the nut

Total lost thread engagement: ca 10mm. )


=========

Anyone know a supplier of wheel studs with about 10mm longer thread than stock and ca 10mm longer wheel nuts suitable for 'alloys' ??

 

Peter,

( thankful the threads stripped as he's not wishing to put the roll cage to the test ).

 

 

 

 

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Hi Peter

 

A few years ago I bought a set of alloy wheels and nuts at Malvern.

 

The nuts were drilled off centre and I almost stripped some threads. Had to buy new nuts from Moss and they were perfect.

 

Just recently treated myself to some genuine Minilites whilst the wife was away.

 

Cheers

 

Nigel

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Hi Peter

 

Meant to add - have you got the right nuts as the replica minilites reguire sleeve nuts and will engage all the thread.

 

Cheers

 

Nigel

NIgel, They were not the true Minilites, but a cheaper version ca £100 ea. The nuts were supplied with the wheels at no extra cost (except potentially to my life). On that basis I excpected them to be fit for purpose.

Peter

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Peter,

 

Rule of thumb from engineering days, nuts should always have the dia of the thread plus 1/2 the dia in thread form engaged, ie: 1/2" threaded stud should have 3/4" of thread engaged by the nut.

 

Mick Richards

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Peter,

 

Rule of thumb from engineering days, nuts should always have the dia of the thread plus 1/2 the dia in thread form engaged, ie: 1/2" threaded stud should have 3/4" of thread engaged by the nut.

 

Mick Richards

Mick, many thanks, very useful.

So 7/16 UNF has major diameter 11.1mm ( source: http://www.gewinde-normen.de/en/unified-fine-thread.html). So the engaged thread should be 11.1 + 5.5 = 16.6mm, clsoe to Triumph's 18mm. Yet the suppliers are expecting 8mm to be adequate,a factor of two too short.

Peter

 

===========

 

Am beginning to wonder if there are many Triumphs on similar inadequate wheel/nut combination.

I asked the supplier:

I am planning to purchase 5 1/2J 15 inch Minilights with 195x65 tyres.

However alloy wheels are considerably thicker than the TR6 stock steel wheels, Can I be confident that the wheel nuts you supply are safe with standard

TR6 studs?

How many threads are engaged when the wheels are tight?

The supplier's reply email, quote:

""We supply new nuts with the wheels and have never had to supply extended studs for any of the Triumphs we have sold wheels for. Normally it is recommended that you have at least 7 turns of the wheel nut as engagement but I cannot quote what this is on the wheels on your application.""

 

Weasly words from I**r J***s

 

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Hi Pete,

I had some repro Ali wheels that required the sleeve nuts. These should be long enough as the sleeve almost protrudes on the far side of the wheel.

However the supplied nuts had three diameters - the threaded hole in the 'centre'. The diameter of the sleeve and then finally the hex for the socket.

 

None of the centres of the three diameter coincided - it makes fitting great fun.

 

My next set of Ali wheels used the steel wheel conical nut. These require longer studs because the Ali is significantly thicker.

Getting longer front studs is easy - Pan head.

The rear studs are a problem. These are counter sunk and there are very few alternatives. In the end I machined the pan heads to have a counter sink.

 

Roger

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Hi Pete,

I had some repro Ali wheels that required the sleeve nuts. These should be long enough as the sleeve almost protrudes on the far side of the wheel.

However the supplied nuts had three diameters - the threaded hole in the 'centre'. The diameter of the sleeve and then finally the hex for the socket.

 

None of the centres of the three diameter coincided - it makes fitting great fun.

 

My next set of Ali wheels used the steel wheel conical nut. These require longer studs because the Ali is significantly thicker.

Getting longer front studs is easy - Pan head.

The rear studs are a problem. These are counter sunk and there are very few alternatives. In the end I machined the pan heads to have a counter sink.

 

Roger

Roger,

Many thanks.

The supplied nuts are a hex merging into a cone, no sleeve. And no space for a sleeve - the centre bore of the wheel is marginally greater than the stud diameter.

Excuse my ignorance, do all panhead 7/16 UNF use the same dimension on the fluting?

Will have a look at the rears tomorrow, hadn't realised they're different from fronts.

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Hi Peter!

 

Go to Grayston Engineering Ltd they manufacture a vast range of wheel nuts and studs. They are based in Chessington, tel. 020 8974 1122 and produced Wolfrace, Revolution, Mamba and Cobra for example.

 

I would have thought that your wheels should be fitted with sleeved nuts? + some sort of washer? Have you got the correct wheels? All the above use this type for TR's!

 

If you buy, you will have to go through one of their Dist. but they will speak to you.

 

Good Luck,

 

Bruce.

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Hi Peter!

 

Go to Grayston Engineering Ltd they manufacture a vast range of wheel nuts and studs. They are based in Chessington, tel. 020 8974 1122 and produced Wolfrace, Revolution, Mamba and Cobra for example.

 

I would have thought that your wheels should be fitted with sleeved nuts? + some sort of washer? Have you got the correct wheels? All the above use this type for TR's!

 

If you buy, you will have to go through one of their Dist. but they will speak to you.

 

Good Luck,

 

Bruce.

Hi Bruce, Thank you.There is no space for a sleeve and no washer, just a cone cast into the wheel and machined on the nut. These are 'cheap' alloys, but still sold as a TR6 fitment. A far cry as I have found from the proper alloys you describe.

I think 10mm longer studs and bolts will make it safe, but I was expecting a quick, and safe, fitment onto standard studs.

Peter

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Peter, change em oot to 12 MM, and longer too.

12 x 1.5 , billions of cars use that thread size.

 

and can also get thee,s nuts, v v good, light, strong, and every one a anti theft nut,!!

diff colours too

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=16++spline+drive+wheel+nuts&LH_PrefLoc=1&_sop=2&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xspline+drive+wheel+nuts.TRS0&_nkw=spline+drive+wheel+nuts&_sacat=0

 

M

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Peter

The fact that you managed to strip threads is a concern.

I think a qualified Stess Man would say that the strength of stud and nut materials is probably as ( more?)important as the number of threads engaged.

The stronger the material, the less the deformation, within the elastic limit, the less the number of threads required to carry the load.

Some material used on repro parts and elsewhere are simply not up to the job.

If either stud or nut are made of sub standard material it would not matter how many threads were engaged as it would strip before carrying the design load of of that thread size. The number of threads can be checked with the eyeball whilst the strength of the material is either taken on trust or needs to be tested, for say relative ability to be filed or take a centre punch strike.

 

Hope yo get safely sorted

Regards

Rog

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Hi Peter,

 

there's an argument that increasing the stud length by that much suggests a bigger diameter stud might be in order on a 4-stud hub, as in I/2" UNF or 14mm . . . . . .

 

In this instance, any nut that can be stripped so easily is junk, not fit for any purpose.

 

Personally I wouldn't b****r about, I'd simply send the whole lot back as not fit for specified purpose, ie TR6 application.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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HI Pete,

I believe that all the 7/16 have the same fluting - I haven't found one that isn't.

 

You will have fun getting the rear sorted without resorting to machining,

 

Roger

Hi Roger,

I could try the angle grinder....

Retaining the original studs and fitting steel wheels is looking more and more attractive.

Peter

 

 

Hi Peter,

 

there's an argument that increasing the stud length by that much suggests a bigger diameter stud might be in order on a 4-stud hub, as in I/2" UNF or 14mm . . . . . .

 

In this instance, any nut that can be stripped so easily is junk, not fit for any purpose.

 

Personally I wouldn't b****r about, I'd simply send the whole lot back as not fit for specified purpose, ie TR6 application.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

Hi Alec,

I shall email them tomorrow suggesting they re-evaluate their email and web site.

And enquire re returns.

If I'm not happy then its Trading Standards, no messing. Hand torque should not strip threads on either nuts or studs.

I doubt I'm the first to buy these wheels, nor to try to fit them to standard studs, so it is puzzling there aren't reports on here of their alloy wheels flying off TRs.

 

Replacing just the two damaged studs and fittng steel wheels is looking increasingly attractive.

 

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Peter

The fact that you managed to strip threads is a concern.

I think a qualified Stess Man would say that the strength of stud and nut materials is probably as ( more?)important as the number of threads engaged.

The stronger the material, the less the deformation, within the elastic limit, the less the number of threads required to carry the load.

Some material used on repro parts and elsewhere are simply not up to the job.

If either stud or nut are made of sub standard material it would not matter how many threads were engaged as it would strip before carrying the design load of of that thread size. The number of threads can be checked with the eyeball whilst the strength of the material is either taken on trust or needs to be tested, for say relative ability to be filed or take a centre punch strike.

 

Hope yo get safely sorted

Regards

Rog

Rog, I think its the nut threads failing and then damaging the stud. They are shiny, plated, no indication of grade of steel.

They are marked 7/16 UNF 20. So 20 turns but the first 3 to 4mm is devoid of thread, under the cone.

I would never dream of driving with just 5.5 turns ( 8mm) engaged. I had been used with steel wheels to 50ftlb torque, so 'hand tight and nip them up after a few miles' just doesn't seem right.

Peter

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Hi Peter,

 

My Panasports have coned nuts and mating holes. Thread purchase is ample but I don't know the number engaged. I don't race, but haven't had any problems whatsoever with the wheels in over 100K miles.

 

As far as threads are concerned, my dad ( BSME, Yale University '44 ) told me 1/2 of the diameter of the bolt is the minimum ( i.e, 1/3 of the recommendation above ). In any case, the loading from cornering strikes me as mild compared to the preload required to transmit all torque via frictional interface between wheel and brake hub. The bolts should never experience significant shear ( thanks to friction ) or tension ( thanks to preload ) in service.

 

You've found a problem alright and I've no doubt it can be cured with more thread purchase than you've got. I don't know if you prefer dry installation or oiled but I suggest a dab of lithium grease on the threads.

 

Cheers,

Tom

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Hi Peter,

 

My Panasports have coned nuts and mating holes. Thread purchase is ample but I don't know the number engaged. I don't race, but haven't had any problems whatsoever with the wheels in over 100K miles.

 

As far as threads are concerned, my dad ( BSME, Yale University '44 ) told me 1/2 of the diameter of the bolt is the minimum ( i.e, 1/3 of the recommendation above ). In any case, the loading from cornering strikes me as mild compared to the preload required to transmit all torque via frictional interface between wheel and brake hub. The bolts should never experience significant shear ( thanks to friction ) or tension ( thanks to preload ) in service.

 

You've found a problem alright and I've no doubt it can be cured with more thread purchase than you've got. I don't know if you prefer dry installation or oiled but I suggest a dab of lithium grease on the threads.

 

Cheers

Tom

Thanks Tom, that's encouraging. The studs have alway had a smear of grease so have no corrosion, and the original nuts are still sound after 280k miles.

The alloys' thickness at the cone looks good, ca 9mm at apex of cone. Its the stud length that's a really annoying issue, especially as the rear studs will need to be 'specials' to be able to fit.

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Any hints for removing wheel studs, in situ?

G-clamp? big hammer? heat? Plusgas? angle grinder, drill and punch out?

They've been in place since 1974.

 

Reckon my knees might give out first they seem very solid...

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Longer wheel studs 114282XL I think.....

 

Genuine Minilite 5.5x15" are £125.00 each

 

Tom

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Longer wheel studs 114282XL I think.....

 

Genuine Minilite 5.5x15" are £125.00 each

 

Tom

Tom, Thank you. The wheels were £100 inc VAT. They would see me out, if the b8888rs would stay attached to the motor.

Will have to phone Moss as they dont give how much extra long the 114282XL are - I need +10mm, so total 29mm of thread.

And HT nuts with correct cone, not worried about the shine.

Peter

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Brilliant, Dave, thank you. :)

Have ordered 8 for the front.

Peter

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I use a ball joint splitter to remove studs. Screw a nut on to protect the thread.

Thanks Andrew, I'll give it a go. Peter

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