The 4A Engine Rebuild

[SuzanneH]

Hi Rich,

 

I use DeOxC from Bilt Hamber. One bottle (1Ltr) makes 20 Ltr of solution - apprx £11. It removes the rust - not a converter.

 

Roger

Do you dilute it with WATER? That seems very strange to me that something that removes RUST is diluted with water. Do you have to dry it thoroughly when completed?

[littlejim]

.

 

Hi Mick,

I had a trial a few minutes ago and the 5/16-7mm hole works much better.

 

Roger

I hear a cheer ringing around the globe.

You've won an Onya.

[RogerH]

[stillp]

My container is quite small. It will do a corner at a time.

For long straight parts (bottom edge of a boot lid ) I use guttering. The square section stuff with end caps sealed with RTV.

 

Roger,

 

I used DIP, which is now sold under the Hammerite brand. You can make an odd-shaped container of any size by laying out bricks (or whatever suits) to the shape required, and covering them with polythene sheet. I knew someone who derusted a complete Spitfire chassis using only a couple of gallons of diluted Dip.

 

Pete

[stuart]

Roger,

 

I know that Stuart recommends 7mm for any punched or drilled holes to help get the bottom plate welded and fused before the hole is filled in.

Also watching a welder on a vehicle tipper body once (steel truck body) where he had to use a plug weld, he countersunk the hole in the top plate first which removes the top edge which is where the restricted access is making the plug weld harder. Once the arc was struck on the bottom plate he made a little circular movement with the torch filling in the countersink and leaving a neat mushroom top like a rivet.

 

Mick Richards

Yep thats the way to do it.

Stuart.

[Geko]

Roger, If I want to post anything unrelated to your engine rebuild, I know where to go. This is old stuff but may help: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TRiumph-tr4-4a-250-FENDER-REPAIR-PANEL-/281937602626?hash=item41a4ca6842:g:th0AAOSwPc9Ww2At&vxp=mtr

Edited February 22, 2016 by Geko

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

today we took one step forward, three steps back and then four steps forward -

Yesterday I made a new section to fit on the floor panel vertical flange - the bottom edge had gone rusty.

Now, there is an adage - measure twice, cut once. Well I measured three or four times and cut once and instead of being spot on it was 1/2" too narrow.

The whole strip (front to back) was too narrow,

So what went wrong - simple really, I measured the wrong thing - bu99er.

Thankfully I had enough spare metal that I could remake the flange with a little to spare.

That is now welded in place.

 

My plug welds are not good. I used a 5/16 hole in the top skin and easily got an arc on the lower skin; but filling the hole uniformly has proved very difficult.

Tomorrow I think I may order the spot welder that Stuart has highlighted.

 

On the bright side I have been hunting (and finding) rusty lumps.

The passenger door had two lumps. The lump at the back is sorted. The one at the front will be sorted tomorrow/Thursday.

The problem is where there is a double skin corrosion gets between the two surface and grows.

The corrosion products fill a bigger space than the parent metal did and so the only thing that can happen is for the skin to bulge - and then burst.

 

Today I found a nasty lump at the top of the 'A' post just rear of where the windscreen frame fits in.

This is a double skin area. First thing is to cut out all (or as much as possible) the rusty metal.

Then a repair can be considered.

 

I wonder when the engine will return.

 

Roger

[littlejim]

Hi Folks,

 

My plug welds are not good. I used a 5/16 hole in the top skin and easily got an arc on the lower skin; but filling the hole uniformly has proved very difficult.

Tomorrow I think I may order the spot welder that Stuart has highlighted.

 

 

 

Roger

try bumping up the wire feed speed.

[RogerH]

Hi LJ,

I've tried various combinations of volts and speed.

I think my problem is missing the hole. I can get a perfect plug next to the hole but not quite in it.

 

My next challenge is now to prepare a perfectly good (brand new) sill so that it fits the gap I have.

The car has a gap - from the bottom of the vertical flange up to 3/4" below where the sill turns from horizontal around that sharp corner and dwonwards.

At the front where the wing covers the sill there is a flat depression squished into the bend that works as a drain (ho ho ho). The bottom of this flat is where the sil is cut off.

 

So what type of join should I make.

There are two choices - butt joint or a joggled joint

The butt weld is less likely to rusty in the future and may require less tidying up afterwards

The joggle joint may be easier to accomplish.

 

I'm tempted by the butt weld.

 

If all goes well I may even being doing some painting - wing & door. Yes. the shed is still here and earning a living.

 

Roger

[littlejim]

trying hard to picture what your words are saying.

I did a bit of joggling on the body repairs (mainly to use the 'joggler' I forked out for), happy with butt welds before then.

Certainly didn't joggle anyjoints on the sills.

I hoped that the 'weld through' primer and subsequent 'waxoyling' inside would look after the subsequent rust risk.

Wherever I wasn't confident of good vision I used magnifiers to make sure I could see what I was doing. (I had early experiences of doing a quite nice weld alongside the actual overlap of metal.)

Found the 2x100 watt lights made a hell of a difference on that front. (used to have 'aircrew' standard eyesight but those days are gone.)

 

I have some beaut dental magnifiers, but Tandy type ones still let you see what is going on in enough detail.

 

The hose from my plenum drain has nothing to do with sills and comes out alongside them (dunno if that is what you are referring to.)

[RogerH]

Hi LJ,

here is a pic of the cut line.

As it shows there is room to do either a butt od joggle joint.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

[littlejim]

Hi LJ,

here is a pic of the cut line.

As it shows there is room to do either a butt od joggle joint.

 

Roger

 

P1040615a.jpg

 

 

Now yer got me stuffed!

When I was doing mine I would have done that one while the back bit was off, so I could put my bit of copper flat behind the weld. But your 'back' bit is already welded on.

Can't see how you fit a 'joggled' bit into that small space. But I guess if you widen it then you can fit a joggled bit in and hold it in place with magnets. (?Am I on the right track/)

(Self says to self, why has he run his disk grinder through it??)

[stuart]

Errr I hate to say this Roger but I think I would have fitted a full sill and had done with it, thats going to warp otherwise, Do buy the spot welder BTW it would make fitting the whole sill a lot easier.

Stuart.

[RogerH]

Hi Jim,

if I joggle it (the inner 1/2" flange will fit) I will hold it together with skin pins (these are wonderful aerospace clips that hold skins together when riveting.

If I do a but weld then I'll skin pin a butt strap in place along the length of the butt weld - this will hold the two pieces together.

 

Hi Stuart,

I considered fitting the whole panel but there would be a heck of lot of destruction going on and decided against it (that could be a foolish move)

I also considered some of the problems in doing it the way I have chosen.

The upper original skin skin is quite rigid and assuming I can securely lock the lower skin in place then it may well work (or not as the case may be).

 

Thinking about it now (just a little to late) I probably could have removed the whole of the old sill with a few tweaks but I shall try this way first.

If it looks too iffy when finished I can still revert to a whole replacement (whats £50 in the grand scheme of things).

 

I contacted CJAutos this morning and they are now scouring the warehouse to see if they have a spot welder - awaiting a call back.

 

Roger

 

PS - life was not meant to be easy !!!

Edited February 24, 2016 by RogerH

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

the sill saga is approaching a crucial point. Actually it passed that crucial point this morning when I cut it in half.

Anyway another crucial point.

With the bottom flange of the outer panel pinned to the vertical floor flange the top of the cut-down panel was then trimmed to fit, with a neat gap, the edge of the original sill.

Using finger pressure the panels lined up nicely. If only I could weld properly.

 

Before I weld it in position I shall do a dry run and fit the front and rear wings to make sure that they fit - that would be huge fun to weld it up and find nothing fits.

 

This morning I contacted CJAuto's to purchase a spot welder. The dear old thing on the other end said she would phone back after a search of the warehouse.

Anyway - no phone call. So I called later in the afternoon. A more sprightly old bloke answered the phone. He confirmed there were no welders in the warehouse but they did have the show model in the shop. So it will arrive on Friday. If Doris was on the ball I could have had it tomorrow.

 

I had a play with the front of the passenger door. Both hinge attachment areas showed signs of cracking. The signs were cracks

There was also swelling due to corrosion in between the skin and doubler plate.

 

Roger

 

Pic #34 shows the forward upper corner of the door. All that crud was growing between the door frame skin and the internal doubler

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by RogerH

[stillp]

New door skin methinks Roger!

 

Pete

[RogerH]

Hi Pete,

the actual door skin is in good condition. I'm referring to the casing that the skin attaches to.

The casing has doublers for the hinges and locks and this is what is causing swelling due to rust.

 

Roger

[stillp]

Thanks Roger, I couldn't make out what part of the door you'd photographed.

 

Pete

[Guest ntc]

Hi Jim,

if I joggle it (the inner 1/2" flange will fit) I will hold it together with skin pins (these are wonderful aerospace clips that hold skins together when riveting.

If I do a but weld then I'll skin pin a butt strap in place along the length of the butt weld - this will hold the two pieces together.

 

Hi Stuart,

I considered fitting the whole panel but there would be a heck of lot of destruction going on and decided against it (that could be a foolish move)

I also considered some of the problems in doing it the way I have chosen.

The upper original skin skin is quite rigid and assuming I can securely lock the lower skin in place then it may well work (or not as the case may be).

 

Thinking about it now (just a little to late) I probably could have removed the whole of the old sill with a few tweaks but I shall try this way first.

If it looks too iffy when finished I can still revert to a whole replacement (whats £50 in the grand scheme of things).

 

I contacted CJAutos this morning and they are now scouring the warehouse to see if they have a spot welder - awaiting a call back.

 

Roger

 

PS - life was not meant to be easy !!!

Roger

If a job is worth doing do it once and do it right

[RogerH]

Hi Neil,

yes I agree.

My little repair will work, and should last for the next twenty or so years. And depending on tomorrows dry run (wing fit) will look good.

 

Replacing the whole panel would be ideal but I'm playing the percentages and expecting to save a great deal of effort - removing a sill is a seriously big job.

 

If for some unexpected reason it doesn't fit then plan B comes into effect - replace the whole thing. That will be painful for many reasons.

 

Roger

[stuart]

To be honest Roger with both wings and the door off a whole sill replacement especially if the drop section of the floor and the ends need repair is far easier than just repairing it, especially to get the wing line right.

Stuart.

[Don H.]

Boy, you're making me quite happy to have done a full-body-off restoration of my tub, Roger. I have this sinking feeling that you're nowhere near finished with your corrosion problems at this rate. You're more tolerant of the tin worm than I!

[Rob Salisbury]

Roger, go up another couple of inches with your cut, so that your plug welds can be made on a horizontal rather than vertical surface, cut you new sill to match and you maintain your door gap with whats left of the old sill, grind down the plugs with a flap wheel, a bit of filler in the corners and no one will know the difference, a bodge I know, but a professional bodge!!

Cheers Rob

[RogerH]

Hi Rob,

a little to late to re-cut the new panel.

I had considered a variety of places to make the join. I chose where it is now (apprx 1" below the outer curve) so that it was partly out of sight and easy to do a joggled joint if I wanted one.

The new sill is aligned with the original position with the swage lines at the front/rear wing as a guide.

 

As I mentioned above if at the end of the day it is unsightly then I can resort to a full replacement. Hopefully that will not be required.

 

Hi Don,

after 17 years and 180,000miles of ALL year driving I know that there is rust in places where there may not be places.

Perhaps one day I'll do another complete rebuild and get the body dipped but in the mean time I shall attack rusty bits as they arrive.

 

Roger

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

well today has been fun (no is hasn't).

 

I started off finishing three panels - pax door, front wing and rear wing. Little bit of filler here and there ready for painting sometime this week-end.

I also had to attack the top of the 'A' post rear face. There was a big swelling of sub-surface rust coming from the inner panel of the 'A' post.

This area can't get painted and must have been rotting for the last 49 years.

Anyway the angle grinder doesn't take prisoners.

So all the excess rust was cut out and everything reachable was coated in 'Bonda rust' - hopefully it will slow things down for another 20 or so years.

 

Whilst I was doing this 'Parcel Pete' stopped by and dropped off the new spot welder.

This is an economy job but looks OK from CJAuto's. It would appear to be made by Chicago Electric.

There was a problem - the top electrode waggled about like a savaloy in an alley - ee it was floppy.

 

A little bit of investigation showed that the hinge was made from a 6mm rod with a rolled 8mm thread on each end.

Sadly even the 8mm threads where very loose in the hinge pin holes - these were 21/64".

So a new hinge pin was made from a 3/8" bolt with a 5/16 thread on the end. Perfik - the savaloy no longer waggled.

Up and Down was beautiful, sideways waggle a long distant memory.

 

Tomorrow I will do some trials with the spotty welder and perhaps do some serious sticking together.

If I get bored then I'll do some paint spraying - no end to my talents. No, not talents, patience.

 

Having seen SteveT's pic of his PO's welding I'm quite chuffed with mine (and mine are 'orrible)

 

Roger

Edited February 26, 2016 by RogerH