Window frame stanchions and hood fitting

[AtLast]

Hi again... I'm hoping I've not got another wrong part! But the guys fitting my hood (from John Skinner) have had some problems with alignment and it still looks pretty horrid... it's still work in progress but could I ask the experts on here one initial question.

 

As I understand it the window frame bolts directly to the body on a later 3A (mine is post 60000) without any spacers or plates between the stanchion and body. However the fitter said it wouldn't line up correctly and think this is at least partly responsible for the poor fit of the hood. So they have made up some plates to go between the body where it bolts at the bottom of the stanchion (can't really see this in the picture.)

 

So my question is can anyone confirm that this is the correct window frame for the car... I've got no reason to believe it's not at it's always been on the car, but if it is correct then any other thoughts as to why the fitters have deemed it necessary to put plates in place. I'm seeing them later but would be good to know for sure if the window frame/stanchions are the correct ones.

 

Thanks

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by AtLast

[EdwinTiben]

Hi Archie,

 

there should be a set of stanchion plate guides mounted on the body where you slip on the window stanchions.

 

The one on the picture below is the correct type for my tr2, yours is a bit different because of the "bolts" used on the tr3a to mount the frame.

So, no stanchion directly on the body !

 

 

 

PS i have a hood from Skinner fitted to my TR2:

 

if you look at my buildblog on picasa you'll find more images of the fitting.

Edited August 4, 2015 by EdwinTiben

[AtLast]

Thanks Edwin.. so do the frame and stanchions themselves look correct for my car. They are bolts (I think!) so I guess it must be?

Edited August 4, 2015 by AtLast

[TR 2100]

Later 3As (a bit earlier than the TS 60,001 changes) did NOT have

the stanchion plate guides and the stanchions were fixed directly to

the body.

 

Can't really see what could lead to the ill-fitting hood - could well be

the hood itself, but if it has been made to a pattern used for other

TRs, then there may be something else out of alignment.

 

The earlier dzus fastener stanchions and later bolted ones should

not affect the fitting of the hood, although it's not so bad - there are

often ripples just back from the windscreen corners.

 

What DOES make it look a bit strange is how low it sits. You would

not be able to open the doors the way it is. The edges of the hood

sit INSIDE the sidescreens.

 

AlanR

Edited August 4, 2015 by TR 2100

[Fireman049]

Revington TR have just introduced new stanchion plates for TR3's.

 

Tom.

[EdwinTiben]

when i zoom in the picture i see there is room between body and the stanchions right in the place where i would suspect the guide plates would be as this is a kind of rail to slip onto.

 

if the later ones do not have the guide plates, than there would be different stanchions?

 

I can see the poor fitting of the hood. It could be a problem of the fitter?

You can try some fettling with the bows, you can change the length of the straps connecting the bows to create more tension on the hood, thus removing some of the folds.

 

[AtLast]

Edwin I just dug out this picture and it appears to have a plate on the car. Does this mean I have the wrong type for my 3A? This is my car about six years ago before restoration.

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by AtLast

[AtLast]

Cheers Alan and Tom for your replies too. If it is the wrong stanchion (it looks like it might be given there did appear to be a plate on the car originally - not sure where that has gone.) then I wonder how different the angles on the frame and if that really is the reason the hood sits so oddly. I think you are right Alan that it sits way too low especially compared to Edwin's excellent car and pics.

 

Does anyone have a good picture of a later 3A with hood to compare?

Edited August 4, 2015 by AtLast

[EdwinTiben]

Later 3As (a bit earlier than the TS 60,001 changes) did NOT have

the stanchion plate guides and the stanchions were fixed directly to

the body.

 

 

AlanR

i really cant find any evidence of the directly fixing, do you have a list somewhere that is was a change?

 

the only changes i can find are the later used bolts instead of dzus and aluminium versions which were skipped due to poor quality.

 

in the guide to originality of Piggott is no evidence of this change?

[TR 2100]

I think the (minor) body changes required were

incorporated into the TS 60,001 changes but

I know from my own experience of a TS 56,500ish

3A that had bolt on stanchions that the change

point was a bit earlier (and there MAY WELL have

been overlap, not a precise change point.

I think the only change required would be tapped

plates inside the scuttle, replacing the brackets

for dzus fasteners.

 

The stanchion plates fitted between the windscreen

frame and the stanchions - bodywork not affected.

 

I am sure the stanchion profile was the same for

both dzus and bolted stanchions. The stanchion

is "hollowed out" so the stanchion covers and hides

the locating plate, apart from a small section at the

front to allow the stanchion to slide on.

 

First time I've heard of the aluminium screen

being "of poor quality" and discontinued for that

reason. Where did you hear that?

 

AlanR

Edited August 4, 2015 by TR 2100

[EdwinTiben]

i really cant find any evidence of the directly fixing, do you have a list somewhere that is was a change?

 

the only changes i can find are the later used bolts instead of dzus and aluminium versions which were skipped due to poor quality.

 

in the guide to originality of Piggott is no evidence of this change?

hold on..

 

i stand corrected...

 

i found this information including picture:

 

http://www.triumphexp.com/phorum/read.php?6,877227

[EdwinTiben]

I think the (minor) body changes required were

incorporated into the TS 60,001 changes but

I know from my own experience of a TS 56,500ish

3A that had bolt on stanchions that the change

point was a bit earlier (and there MAY WELL have

been overlap, not a precise change point.

I think the only change required would be tapped

plates inside the scuttle, replacing the brackets

for dzus fasteners.

 

The stanchion plates fitted between the windscreen

frame and the stanchions - bodywork not affected.

 

I am sure the stanchion profile was the same for

both dzus and bolted stanchions. The stanchion

is "hollowed out" so the stanchion covers and hides

the locating plate, apart from a small section at the

front to allow the stanchion to slide on.

 

First time I've heard of the aluminium screen

being "of poor quality" and discontinued for that

reason. Where did you hear that?

 

AlanR

 

in the collectors guide from bill piggott, section Body and Exterior Trim.

There is no reference to the stanchions without plates..

[AtLast]

Alan & Edwin are you agreed though that the profile is the same. So that the top of the window frame where the hood clips to the tenax pegs would be in the same position regardless? I'm trying to determine if use of the 'wrong' stanchion would affect this positioning and thus the poor fit of the hood. If the profile is the same then I need to start looking elsewhere for the problem.

[foster461]

My TR3A is TS 66324 and it has the bolt-on stanchions with a guide plate. Unlike the earlier cars the guide plate is not attched to the scuttle and just slides in to a slot on the stanchion. I assume the stanchion is the same as the earlier cars and only the arrangement of the guide plate is different.

 

I thought I saw a recent picture from Don H (TR3B) where the stanchion had no guide plate but was formed to match the scuttle.

 

Stan

[Lebro]

Below is photo of the late stanchion plates.

 

I think there were 3 types used during the evolution of the SS car.

1 - dzus into plates

2 - screws through plates into body

3 - screws direct to body.

 

 

 

Bob.

[foster461]

Below is photo of the late stanchion plates.

 

I think there were 3 types used during the evolution of the SS car.

1 - dzus into plates

2 - screws through plates into body

3 - screws direct to body.

 

Late stanchion plates.jpg

 

Bob.

 

Agreed Bob. The TR3B was totally different with a different stanchion, no guide plate, different tenon plates and different clamps for the bottom seal. Amazing that that they did all that redisign for a one year model.

 

If you dont have that style of stanchion you need a guide plate and it will be obvious if you remove the stanchion as there will be a slot in it for the guide plate.

 

Still not clear what is causing Archies poor fitting top though unless there is something else going on with the geometry or the top was not fitted properly.

 

Stan

[Don H.]

Were these late stanchions, no plate/mounted directly to the body TR3B only? I didn't think so... I thought late TR3As had the same.

 

[EdwinTiben]

Alan & Edwin are you agreed though that the profile is the same. So that the top of the window frame where the hood clips to the tenax pegs would be in the same position regardless? I'm trying to determine if use of the 'wrong' stanchion would affect this positioning and thus the poor fit of the hood. If the profile is the same then I need to start looking elsewhere for the problem.

 

Just compare the position of the screenframe of your car to one of the other pictures. I dont think its that much different than on my tr2, compared to the position of the wipers, doors.

I think its more an issue of the fitting of the hood itself. could be a design flaw, but as mentioned before, Skinners works with templates so it wont be any different than others. perhaps the bows-setup is not correct.

 

This could be helpful: http://www.tr3a.info/sticks.htm

[vivdownunder]

Best I know the stanchion sequence went along these lines -

 

TR2/3/3A Chrome plated Dzuz type LH 552181 RH 552182 (captive plate - windscreen slides on/off).

TR3A Polished aluminium bolt on LH 560671 RH 560672 (not recorded as having a plate).

TR3A Chrome plated bolt on LH 560627 RH 560628 (with loose plate that embeds in stanchion).

TR3A/B Chrome plated bolt on LH 804511 RH 804512 (no plate - mounts against body).

 

Lower corner finishers on TR3B stanchions changed from ear shaped to a sort of rectangular shape (or at least they did on my former TR3B).

 

Sometimes hoods (and sidescreens) don't fit correctly due to occupants using the windscreen to lift up out of the seat, thus bending the stanchion inwards. Also, it's difficult for off the shelf hood makers with variations between cars arising from the factory custom fitting each hood.

 

Viv

[foster461]

Best I know the stanchion sequence went along these lines -

 

TR2/3/3A Chrome plated Dzuz type LH 552181 RH 552182 (captive plate - windscreen slides on/off).

TR3A Polished aluminium bolt on LH 560671 RH 560672 (not recorded as having a plate).

TR3A Chrome plated bolt on LH 560627 RH 560628 (with loose plate that embeds in stanchion).

TR3A/B Chrome plated bolt on LH 804511 RH 804512 (no plate - mounts against body).

 

Lower corner finishers on TR3B stanchions changed from ear shaped to a sort of rectangular shape (or at least they did on my former TR3B).

 

Sometimes hoods (and sidescreens) don't fit correctly due to occupants using the windscreen to lift up out of the seat, thus bending the stanchion inwards. Also, it's difficult for off the shelf hood makers with variations between cars arising from the factory custom fitting each hood.

 

Viv

 

Viv, do you know at what point the TR3A made the transition to stanchions with no guide plates ?. I just looked through all my books and cant find any mention of this.

 

Stan

[TR 2100]

Going back to the fitting of the hood, it doesn't look bad,

ejust that the end of the seam is not very good. I see

that as a fault in the hood itself.

 

It's the fit of the sidescreens (and being inside the hood)

that makes the hood look not right.

Are the sidescreens a bit too low?

 

As for the stanchions, there are more variations than I had

realised. Maybe the factory were playing about with different

options. One of my 3As (both around TS 56,000) had the

aluminium stanchion and frame option, and also had alloy

bonnet and boot hinges (trivia: Pete Buckles used these

as moulds for the first remanufactured hinges)

 

AlanR

[Don H.]

Viv's list seems right from my experience, too. Note that aluminum stanchions are extremely rare in the US -- not quite so rare in the UK, as we've discussed in previous threads.

 

We haven't started talking about the fixing machine screws yet either. On my TR3B (a model where no rules apply, even considering S-T production-over-consistency thinking), the replacements from Moss Motors (USA) had to go back, and the originals went back on, because the replacement machine screw heads were too large to fit in the countersink on the stanchions. The originals fit perfectly, even after the stanchions were re-chromed.

 

Modern replacements on the left, originals from TSF202L on the right.

 

 

And on the car:

Edited August 4, 2015 by Don H.

[MalcolmTR2]

Archie, I think Edwin may have hit on the nub of the problem - the hood sticks. Look at the photo of his hood and see how the front stick holds up the hood all round - yours only touches the hood in the middle. Check the hood sticks are mounted correctly and aren't worn or bent.

Excuse my ignorance, but does the Skinner hood come with the fasteners already fitted? Unfortunately, once the fasteners are all fitted to the hood, it's really too late to "make it fit". When I fitted my TR2 hood, I had to put the fasteners in myself, so made sure the screen and hood frame were firmly fitted and lined up first, trial-fitted the hood and started putting the fasteners in from the centre, working out. I ended up with a hood that fitted like Edwin's - and still does, 20 years later. The adjustment comes in where you put the fasteners, which is done to suit the car - and which is why, if you take a hood off one car and try to fit it to another, it almost certainly won't fit, and may well end up looking like yours, because the fasteners are in the wrong place.

That said, I'm no expert - hope your guys can get it fitting properly, it's a very nice-looking car.

Malcolm

[vivdownunder]

Stan asked about stanchion change points in post 20 and I've not seen that established. Most likely only recorded as Engineering Changes (ECs) lost in time.

 

In post 21, Alan mentioned something obscure - aluminium stanchions came with polished aluminium windscreen frames. It's thought of as an unsuccessful attempt at cost saving, or less likely a scarcity of brass. Not weight related as for competition.

 

Hoods had two flaps along the top of the sidescreens. A deeper inner flap and a shallower outer flap. Sidescreens closed against the inner flap, with the outer flap designed to drain water over and outside. With rebuilds, that fit usually only happens if the hood is up and sidescreens with attached brackets held in place to scribe new bracket holes.

 

The puckered seam on Archie's hood isn't right. When hoodstick webbing is changed, if possible use the old webbing as a pattern to get the correct spacings between hoodsticks. They closely followed the hood seams. Hoodmakers don't have original patterns, so these days it's the best fit achievable.

 

Viv

 

[foster461]

Stan asked about stanchion change points in post 20 and I've not seen that established. Most likely only recorded as Engineering Changes (ECs) lost in time.

 

In post 21, Alan mentioned something obscure - aluminium stanchions came with polished aluminium windscreen frames. It's thought of as an unsuccessful attempt at cost saving, or less likely a scarcity of brass. Not weight related as for competition.

 

Hoods had two flaps along the top of the sidescreens. A deeper inner flap and a shallower outer flap. Sidescreens closed against the inner flap, with the outer flap designed to drain water over and outside. With rebuilds, that fit usually only happens if the hood is up and sidescreens with attached brackets held in place to scribe new bracket holes.

 

The puckered seam on Archie's hood isn't right. When hoodstick webbing is changed, if possible use the old webbing as a pattern to get the correct spacings between hoodsticks. They closely followed the hood seams. Hoodmakers don't have original patterns, so these days it's the best fit achievable.

 

Viv

 

 

 

I think we need to see some more pictures of Archie's hood, outside and inside, rear and sides and I bet we will see better what is going on.

 

I'll start another thread re sidescreen installation during a restoration.

 

Stan