EFI

[AndrewMAshton]

Hello, anyone fitted EFI to their 4 cylinder triumph and happy to share their experiences, I am looking at the Emerald conversion kit, cheers, Andrew

[stuart]

I have had all the bits to do it for the last 3 1/2 years though not got round to doing it yet (never get the time to work on your own!) Its a hybrid Omex/Webcon/Lucas system. Should be interesting as the Omex brain software is open source so you can play with it to your hearts content. I also have a wide band sensor kit to monitor mixture all the time too. There used to be a couple of people on here that were running systems but I dont think they post anymore.

Stuart.

[TriumphV8]

Some time ago I talked to Brian here who has a MS3 (Megasquirt) on his TR3.

He was very pleased with the system.

 

I prefer MegaSquirt and have that on TR6 and Rover V8 and would never

start with something else than EFI today.

 

Emerald K6 looks like a very good system that offers a lot of functions

although one may not need that all on a old car.

 

All complete sets must be paid for the knowledge that was put in.

At Sideways many British people managed to build a complete system

by their own spending less than 1000GBP complete.

 

Keep in mind that if you want to have it perfect you will have to understand that system

fully anyway. That is a boring process first but later with easy setup from passenger seat it pays back.

You get a nice monitoring what goes on in the engine and what remedy should be taken.

 

So a good reliable EFI is the base but the main step is the individual setup.

 

Many EFI systems are on the market, as far as I know many are similar and work pretty well.

 

I would also take a look at Peter Böllmanns UMC-1 and his page

http://no-limits-motorsport.de/shop/product.php?id_product=122

He is an expert and very friendly and kind to help with his system.

 

Like Stuart says the AFR information is helpfull and always should be used with the EFI

Ignition control is possible but not a must and can be added later

or can be the first step or system can work hooked up to check first.

[ianc]

I believe Revington offers 2 different types of EFI, but I know nothing about them - worth a look at the website?

Ian Cornish

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

At the International last year Racetorations had a 4 pot car with EFI of some sort fitted.

 

Cheers

Peter W

[RogerH]

Hi Andrew,

I believe HarryTR5 has done this to his TR5 and it runs well. Not sure what system he uses. Give him a PM.

 

I believe that Enginuity in West London also provide a system - not sure if they fit it or you buy as a kit.

 

Roger

[AndrewMAshton]

Hello, many thanks for your replies, reading Stuart's and Andreas reply they have far more knowledge than I, I am planning to fit a kit I can fit and once set up leave well alone, if I had learned from all my mistakes I would be like Einstein, however.............

 

I have looked at other kits and the price ranges from about £5k to £7K, whereas Emerald will add up to £2.5K including a new aluminium fuel tank, it will then need setting up and reading Emerald's website Dave Walker is the man for me, still a long way off, all I have at the moment is a pair of Weber inlet manifolds!

 

Cheers, Andrew

[harrytr5]

Hi Andrew,

I have been running my EFI for around 4 years or more and I used Emeralds K6 and a mixture of original manifolds bored out to suit the bosch injectors, single butterfly from a modern MG fitted to the airbox. Used the same petrol tank and added a swirl pot with secondary pump. All stainless braided hoses with teflon lined.

Dave Walker is THE man and very,very helpful. He has a rolling road to set it all up. I did get a lot of help from Andy in Aus and Oz. Also Jerry who inspired me to do it.

Regards Harry

[Nick Jones]

£ 5 - 7k........ Lordy.......

 

When I first did my Vitesse I spent less that £ 300....... Admittedly I was on a minimum costs mission and did everything myself including building the ECU (Megasquirt kit, so really not hard), fabricating the manifold and making the loom. EFI parts were harvested from local scrap yards.

In spite of this the system has been really reliable and 10 years/45k on I'm still using it. I've added distributorless ignition control (another £100) and changed the ECU for a higher spec one with barometric correction (Still MS, the old one is my plug-in spare, never needed). The only hardware failure has been the original pump (ex- Peugeot 405) which got so noisy I was driven to swap it for another. The car (Vitesse 2L, engine internally standard) made 120 bhp on the rolling road, drives really well and returns 35mpg average. I've seen 43mpg on long continental runs when "supervised".

 

So it doesn't have to be expensive, but I appreciate that not everyone will be be comfortable doing the work from scratch themselves. I would say that the £ 2.5k Emerald kit would be a fair price, especially if there is some rolling road mapping/set-up included. The others.....

 

Be very wary of any system that does not allow you access to tuning software (Webcon is a notable example) as this ties you to them or a select few "authorised dealers" who will charge heavily every time it needs tweaking.

 

Nick

[stuart]

My system originally had a Webcon ECU but that proved to be a white elephant hence the change to Omex with its open source software. Total kit including AFR meter stands me in not a huge amount as it was bought right

Stuart.

Edited May 19, 2015 by stuart

[Peter Cobbold]

Andrew,

£5k - at that price you could fit a blower kit. And have cash left over for the tank etc. And enjoy the subtantial gain in low rpm torque that no other tuning method can supply; efi, Webers, hot cams, etc included. Smooth running too, great for road work.

Peter

[Alec Pringle]

The kind of money that some TR specialists charge to supply and fit EFI conversions will be nearer £10K than the £5-7K component cost by the time you've completed the exercise.

 

To spend that on a 4-pot TR suggests that the owner has a great deal more money than sense, and/or a four letter contraction of Richard tattooed between eyebrows and hairline.

 

Stick with the DIY route Andrew !

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[AndrewMAshton]

Hello Again,

 

once again, thanks for the comments, as you know Peter we chatted about superchargers at Harrogate as that was my original idea, the reason for my change of mind is emissions, the tree huggers are looking for further afield for targets and one day, and this will be my daily user when I retire shortly, we may become targets, the other reason, caught from my 16 years in Yorkshire, is fuel economy, petrol is not going to get cheaper, I will report on progress as it happens, Cheers, Andrew

[Peter Cobbold]

Andrew,

Yes I recall Harrogate. I'm working on a carb-leaning and spark-advance set up that should be as good as efi at tailpipe gases and not much worse at mpg. Better than twin carbs. Maybe better than efi as a blower vapourises the fuel better than injectors. Will know by IWE.

 

If you want to get the best mixture quality out of injectors at cruise, fit them upstream of the butterfly.

Much of those nasty PM2.5 particulates come from modern petrol engine exhausts and imperfect combustion from injector spray. Aftermarket injection systems will be much worse than modern very high pressure injectors. And tackling particulates is on the environmental agenda.

 

Longer term is very tricky to predict. But battery research has really taken off globally. If a 250mile-capacity, compact, rapid- recharge battery becomes available then electric cars will explode in numbers. Possibly rather suddenly. Demand for petrol will plummet and price will escalate as refineries suffer from declining demand.

 

Cheers

Peter

Edited May 19, 2015 by Peter Cobbold

[TriumphV8]

"Holy Moly" Jeremy would say! 5-7K is enough to make the manifold from pure gold!

I was wondering how people in Germany pay 4500 Euro for a TR6 conversion

where inlet manifold can be taken cheap from PI system.

 

TR4 is a bit special because what manifold to take?

I would go for Weber manifold and fit BILAS EFI throttle bodies

with Weber DCOE shape and pattern.

That alone will be close to 1000 Euros but its new and perfect.

 

As all parts around can be bought from stock it remains only a question

of mounting all those things together that it makes sense.

A bit more expensive than homebuilt but still saved a fortune compared to 5K and the best is

one starts to rely on electronics as oldtimer freaks often see that as prone to break

where in all days car they rely on ABS, injection and safety equipment with electronics.

 

I would look around if there is somebody close to my home for help

if the project sticks and ask him for help and advice.

 

DIY autotune has a nice book to offer where EFI is introduced.

[stuart]

Hello Again,

 

once again, thanks for the comments, as you know Peter we chatted about superchargers at Harrogate as that was my original idea, the reason for my change of mind is emissions, the tree huggers are looking for further afield for targets and one day, and this will be my daily user when I retire shortly, we may become targets, the other reason, caught from my 16 years in Yorkshire, is fuel economy, petrol is not going to get cheaper, I will report on progress as it happens, Cheers, Andrew

That is one reason why I would like to experiment with it as well. According to some who have been there you should be able to achieve around 40+ MPG and if fitted with a CAT would meet emissions.

Stuart.

[TRnorm]

http://www.pattonmachine.com/TBI-Pricing.htm

 

The Patton machine site looks very interesting. With the £ good wrt to the $ the prices for a complete 4 cyl kit appears to be a relative "steal" at $1700.

The machined adaptor plates which take the injectors visually integrate with existing Carbs beautifully.

 

But it has got me thinking though...

Obviously there is just 2 injectors for 4 cylinders - which i presume is OK, since many modern cars only have a single injector into a common plenium(?)

I guess the GM control module they use is "universal" in the sense that it'll take a tailored chip. If that is so then why would one want to buy a much, much more expensive ECU (and I include even the Megasquirt range) when the GM item appears on eBay at just $99?

And... What other ECUs could be pulled out of a current or late car and pressed into TR service at minimum cost and with minimum effort? If I'm offered upgraded chips for so many modern cars, then why cant the chip be upgraded to match our TRs requirements? Am i missing something, or is it just that it requires the initial investment of know-how and that that wouldn't be recoup able in a low cost, anyone-can-do-it scenario?

 

Before the flood of "it isn't that easy" let me say I know it isn't*- but it was the basic principle of how one might go about achieving a reliable, and really cost effective EFI solution that I find fascinating.

* Dave Walker's excellent book on EFI was, I thought, a great overview and well worth the read.

 

Norman

Edited May 20, 2015 by TRnorm

[Ragtag]

 

I was wondering how people in Germany pay 4500 Euro for a TR6 conversion

where inlet manifold can be taken cheap from PI system.

 

Hi Andreas,

 

Could you point me in the direction of some cheap PI throttle bodies please.

[stuart]

In theory you could go and rob the injection system off any 2.1 four cylinder car and with the loom and ECU make it work. Though Im sure its not that easy. I know for the 6 cylinder cars the favourite used to be the 2.5 Vauxhall Senator system.

Stuart.

[kiwican]

I was also going to suggest the Patton kit. It has been fitted to a few TR6's in the US and the owners seem happy with it.

 

Check out www.tr6.danielsonfamily.org

 

Bobby has write up on the installation of this system. Search through his site to find it

 

SImon

 

Here is the direct link

 

http://tr6.danielsonfamily.org/TBI.htm

Edited May 20, 2015 by kiwican

[TRnorm]

What a great link Simon - loads of real detailed stuff!

Norman

[TriumphV8]

 

Hi Andreas,

 

Could you point me in the direction of some cheap PI throttle bodies please.

 

Hi Ragtag,

back from vacation I would like to give the requested information:

 

I bought three sets in Ebay UK and had already one left from my V8 swap

and a friend of mine saw what I was doing and bought another set from GB.

 

The first from Ebay was 100 Euro complete with airbox and filterbox.

but my most expensive set was still under 200 Euros.

 

The others became more expensive where the most expensive was the last from my friend

completed with a nice restored airbox in wrinkle from TR-Shop London.

Also the airfilter was not cheap.

 

So it would be a good idea to buy a complete set instead of only the three manifolds

and grab the rest later by chance.

 

Maybe Stoneleigh is a good adress but the prices there rise every year quickly.

 

I than bought a slit saw from rdg tools in GB in imperial size and made new spindles if required

for the five sets and also made a tool to fit ball bearings from RC cars for the spindles.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2015 by TriumphV8

[TriumphV8]

http://www.pattonmachine.com/TBI-Pricing.htm

 

The Patton machine site looks very interesting. With the £ good wrt to the $ the prices for a complete 4 cyl kit appears to be a relative "steal" at $1700.

The machined adaptor plates which take the injectors visually integrate with existing Carbs beautifully.

 

But it has got me thinking though...

Obviously there is just 2 injectors for 4 cylinders - which i presume is OK, since many modern cars only have a single injector into a common plenium(?)

I guess the GM control module they use is "universal" in the sense that it'll take a tailored chip. If that is so then why would one want to buy a much, much more expensive ECU (and I include even the Megasquirt range) when the GM item appears on eBay at just $99?

 

Before the flood of "it isn't that easy" let me say I know it isn't*- but it was the basic principle of how one might go about achieving a reliable, and really cost effective EFI solution that I find fascinating.

 

 

As you said, it is not that easy although the response also here is very positive

the results will definitely be not that way if we are talking about TR6!

 

The patton solution is for Americans!

They do not have access to PI systems and may have difficulties to get it road legal.

I do not see advantage over proper set twin carbs with individual needles to spend that money.

 

As one can see from the data a TR6 PI gains about 15-20 HP just from the manifold over twin carbs.

That will not be different with twin injectors on the carb manifold.

The whole EFI thing in my opinion is far to expensive to sacrifice that 15HP chance for some bucks

cheaper buying and getting a tailored setup that will not fit perfect.

And that is only half the reason: The PI manifold tames a wilder cam at idle and low throttle opening

what makes it perfect to drive with wilder cams beyond 280 degrees in all day use.

 

Also the thing with the tailored chip is no good idea because we do not have fully stock engines.

The fun starts with overbore, continues with exhaust systems and goes on with compression ratio

and other cams and valves. All that affects mixture setup and a tailored chip can not meet

all those requirements. Even stock cars in earlier years did not run all the same. Our engines

benefit from indivudual setup of ignition and carbs or injection.

[Nick Jones]

Depends a little on what the OP wants from the system and what state of tune his engine has.

 

The throttle body injection is basically just an electronic carburettor. It can give a more precise mixture control and even respond to feedback from an oxygen sensor, but it can't correct any uneven fuel distribution between cylinders that may be inherent in the manifold design and it won't flow any more air than the original carb setup. The manifold remains the limitation.

 

My motivation behind my original injection install was to improve on the inlet manifold and get more flow and equal flow to all cylinders. Also to does fuel equally to all cylinders. For me, TBI was a non-starter because it wasn't going to do this.

 

I reckon it works too. When I first ran on injection, I used the original distributor, completely unaltered from carb days. On carbs it pinked alot. On injection, it didn't and I was able to advance the ignition 4º before there was a hint of pinking.

 

I have to say that while the injection itself was a revelation, when I added the distributorless ignition to the mix a year or so later, the gains were at least equal and possibly greater. 3D Mapped ignition is worth having on its own.

 

Another interesting point from very recent times. My new engine has a fairly radical cam. 300º inlet duration (though exhaust is shorter at 280º).

I was expecting problems with my plenum manifold with such long timing, but as it turns out it idles at 800 rpm with only a moderate "lope" and pulls even the higher gears from 1000 rpm. Perfectly civilised in a way that would have taken carefully calibrated triple sidedrafts to match in the carb world. I've not been able to test the upper reaches yet (only 125 miles on it so far) but early indications are that it's going to have a fairly bright top-end.

 

Nick

[michaeldavis39]

Hi Nick. Please can you tell me if you are using Pi throttle bodies with 6 individuals butterflies how you have attached your TPS successfully without it breaking and no pulsing issues as I would love to know. Cheers