123 Ignition choice

[jojim65]

Hi,

 

Having had my tacho adapted from mechanical to electronic the next step is to buy a 123 Ignition.

 

I'm aware I need to buy the 123\GB-6-R-V but there appears to be different versions of the same thing and I'm not sure which type to go for.

 

Using the Rimmer's website as an example it makes mention of a standard (RM8270) and programmable (RM8270TUNE) versions.

 

http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID012675

 

The 123 website also mentions the 'new' BOOST version

 

http://www.123ignition.nl/products.php

 

I've had a read through the instruction manual but would also be really interested in any tips on fitting and setting up.

 

Thanks

 

Jim

 

 

[Guest ntc]

Jim

Depends on the spec of your engine and what you intend to use it for.

[jojim65]

It's a 1970 CP 150, standard and just on road use.

[Guest ntc]

Then you do not need the programmable one,is the engine in top condition ?

[jojim65]

Yes, seems to be.

[Guest ntc]

Ok

Then setting B yep,make sure your clamp plate is clean and flat,before fitting bring tdc on one and the green light will let you start it then strobe at 900 rpm 10 deg

[jojim65]

Thanks Neil.

 

Much appreciated.

 

Jim

[grumpy2]

Forgive me for being daft but how does the 123 system without an injection metering take off point work in a PI car?

 

Gary

[peejay4A]

The MU drive is in the pedestal, not the distributor.

[Guest]

Be sure that you choose the right setting. Too lean running at high speed is around the corner. Do not focus on the advance at idle only. (Mmm difficult to explain this in proper English)

 

Menno

[TriumphV8]

Although it is opposite to all written here i would always choose the 123tune for the PI.

The reason is quite easy and was also point of discussion at other threads.

 

Not only me but also some other PI owners recognized huge benefits there

with the employment of part throttle advance regulated by manifold pressure.

 

As the PI has no provision to connect in the "normal" way

it needs the 123tune to benefit from that.

If done correctly there will be no negative effects and some benefits for free.

 

Advantage is better throttle response, more crispy engine feeling

and less fuel consumption.

[jojim65]

Thanks very much for all your advice guys,

 

I've ordered the standard one from Rimmer's before their 17% off offer ended so happy with the bang to bucks ratio.

 

http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-RM8270

 

I'm not really a great Rimmer's fan but it was certainly the cheapest amongst the re-sellers by a long way.

 

Jim

[TriumphV8]

They come from the Netherlands.

 

http://www.123ignition.nl/index.php

 

So they also have often good prices there

and some do the conversion that we can use

the mechanical rev counter at TR6.

 

Often in winter they make special prices on the phone,

heard of swap 123ignition into the TR6 body

below 300 Euros years earlier.

 

http://www.leenapk.nl/123TUNE6RVG.html?category_id=74

 

There is 123tune just 40 Euros more than 123ignition

at Rimmer with special price.....

[Peter Cobbold]

Although it is opposite to all written here i would always choose the 123tune for the PI.

The reason is quite easy and was also point of discussion at other threads.

 

Not only me but also some other PI owners recognized huge benefits there

with the employment of part throttle advance regulated by manifold pressure.

 

As the PI has no provision to connect in the "normal" way

it needs the 123tune to benefit from that.

If done correctly there will be no negative effects and some benefits for free.

 

Advantage is better throttle response, more crispy engine feeling

and less fuel consumption.

But it will result in more pinking upon suddnely opening the throttle from cruise.

Thats because the Lucas PI has no 'acceleration charge' mechanism.

[jojim65]

Hi,

I fitted the 123 Ignition this afternoon without any great problem.

 

Couple of queries if I may, by unscrewing the cover bolt I have set it to 'B' as Neil suggested. Can anyone explain what all the other letters and numbers do in relation to performance of the car.

 

Before changing, the timing marks using a strobe were reasonable steady, but now it flickers by about 6 degrees or so, I thought it would be rock steady on the strobe? I didn't have time this evening to take her out and get right up to temperature so I was adjusting on a cold, choke out a smidge, just on a fast idle to keep her running.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks

 

Jim

[Guest ntc]

Jim

To get a true reading the car must be hot and rpm as low as possible

[TriumphV8]

Hi Jim,

according to the literature the timing should be under any condition +/- 3 degrees from the

virtual perfect timing point in the mapping without suffering disadvantages.

 

The 123ignition provides 16 curves to adapt best to that required timing.

With the initial advance they give quite a lot possibilities to adapt quite nice.

The difference between the curves can be watched on the 123.nl pages.

As a rule of thumb: The higher the number the more aggressive they become.

 

Trick is to take a curve and fit it like a blanket and move and push

until also arms and feet are under the blanket.

This means the new curve is put over the old curve, or better the ideal

curve but what mostly is unknown, that there are no too big differences.

 

The base is always to check the TDC marking first not to buy such an expensive

item and spoil everything from a worn damper at the crank.

 

If timing is not correct, the power drops. Timing too early will

also put bigger load on the engine parts and may in addition

lead to pinking and should be more avoided than less advance

what in limits does no harm. It increases exhaust temperature

but some degrees can be tolerated.

 

Jumping timing can be caused from two reasons:

The 123 may switch between two points in the mapping itself

or the drive from crank to distributor has some play from worn

teeth or timing chain or tensioner.

 

That is why I preferred to take the trigger direct from the crank

and if you would have taken the 123tune you would now be

in the comfortable position to set the timing to 10degrees fixed

and see than only the timing jump caused by the play in the drive

and decide whether it needs some attention.

[jojim65]

Nothing I did with the 123 stopped the flickering strobe so I put the old dizzy back in and it was already at 10 degrees with a steady strobe and far smoother tickover than the 123. I can only assume the 123 is faulty so it's going back to Rimmers.

[Guest ntc]

As I said the unit must have a good earth and the rotor cap pressed fully home.

[jojim65]

Hi Neil,

 

I took your advice on board, base plate was clean and flat, earth was checked on my digi meter.

[jobster]

Hi Jim,

according to the literature the timing should be under any condition +/- 3 degrees from the

virtual perfect timing point in the mapping without suffering disadvantages.

 

The 123ignition provides 16 curves to adapt best to that required timing.

With the initial advance they give quite a lot possibilities to adapt quite nice.

The difference between the curves can be watched on the 123.nl pages.

As a rule of thumb: The higher the number the more aggressive they become.

 

Trick is to take a curve and fit it like a blanket and move and push

until also arms and feet are under the blanket.

This means the new curve is put over the old curve, or better the ideal

curve but what mostly is unknown, that there are no too big differences.

 

The base is always to check the TDC marking first not to buy such an expensive

item and spoil everything from a worn damper at the crank.

 

If timing is not correct, the power drops. Timing too early will

also put bigger load on the engine parts and may in addition

lead to pinking and should be more avoided than less advance

what in limits does no harm. It increases exhaust temperature

but some degrees can be tolerated.

 

Jumping timing can be caused from two reasons:

The 123 may switch between two points in the mapping itself

or the drive from crank to distributor has some play from worn

teeth or timing chain or tensioner.

 

That is why I preferred to take the trigger direct from the crank

and if you would have taken the 123tune you would now be

in the comfortable position to set the timing to 10degrees fixed

and see than only the timing jump caused by the play in the drive

and decide whether it needs some attention.

 

 

Trick is to take a curve and fit it like a blanket and move and push

until also arms and feet are under the blanket. => you lost me here

[Peter Cobbold]

Timing that is even 5 crank degrees out has only a small effect on torque.

http://www.daytona-sensors.com/engine_tuning/Timing_Torque.gif

At wot, too much advance can lead to detonation ( knock; bad pinking) so the 'book' timing is usually set about 3-5 crank degrees retarded from detonation point.

http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_tuning.html

 

Thats the optimum point, but only applies to wot ( ie wide open throttle).

Much more advance is needed at cruise to optimise fuel consumption.

 

The precision needed of ignition system is not great since some cylinders will detonate, sometimes, more than others. Therefore the spark curve has to be set to prevent that worst detonation-prone cylinder knocking. ( unless you time each cyilnder seprartely with really modern digital kit). Running lean on a cylinder will promote its knocking, also if it runs hotter than others. Not to mention weather.

 

Peter

Edited January 31, 2015 by Peter Cobbold

[TriumphV8]

Trick is to take a curve and fit it like a blanket and move and push

until also arms and feet are under the blanket. => you lost me here

 

Does that mean I should explain?

 

There are 16 curves in the 123 and you have one curve in mind, that would be perfect.

With the 16 curves + initial advance the 123 setup must be made that it is similar to that perfect curve.

As a rule of thumb +/- 3 degrees are a good result.

 

If you add initial advance the whole curve gets higher to more advance,

if you switch curve to higher numbers the curve starts at same position

but climbs longer and to higher advance.

 

Take lower number and more initial advance and the curve

gives more advance on low revs and ends in the same region like before.

 

Trick is not get too much out of the range what the perfect curve requieres.

I start with setup opposite to what 123 recommends:

The fixed point is the max. advance the engine needs at high revs.

My TR6 likes 30 degrees.

Next the advance at 2000-3000rpm should be met.

At 2000rpm I have 22 degrees

That requieres switching between the curves and resetting the max advance

to catch both numbers.

 

The idle advance is the less relevant and is found after both points are in limits.