Flying Surrey top

[Chris59]

Hi Ladies and Gents,

 

Something funny happened to Milady de Winter (Badfrog' ex TR4, for those who don't know her in "flesh") last Sunday.

 

i was playing with friends, including one with a nice new Ferrari 599 H GTE (not sure about the 4 last letters in the name of this 600 BHP+ beast), and at 100 Mph +, the soft top of the surrey top flew of.

 

I've no experience with Surrey top, as I drive all my TRs with the hood down, whatever the weather : it was the first time I drove MdW with her tiny roof up, certainly the last, especially when you consider the condition of the remains I've collected both on the verge and on the road.

 

The small rectangular hood itself is not terminally damaged, but the frame is not happy to have met the tyres/chassis (windscreen ?) of the cars I was overtaking : it's now in 5 separate bent pieces...

 

So, I would be very happy to learn : what I've done wrong when I've attached this soft top on the back and front screen frames, or is it a special option, as on James Bond' cars, automatically allowing ejection seat to be used above 100 Mph ?

 

Thanks for sharing your expereinces !

Edited December 22, 2014 by Chris59

[RogerH]

Hi Chris,

I wish I was there to see it

 

The front edge of the roof sits under the screen capping - two poppers (one either side)

The back has two big screws holding the rail down.

There should be two elasticated straps at the front that would have retained everything.

 

New frames are available at Moss.

 

Roger

 

PS - Merry Christmas Chris, have a great time.

Edited December 22, 2014 by RogerH

[Chris59]

Roger, I wish I wasn't there to hear it : the "bang" was incredibly loud

 

The front edge of the roof sits under the screen capping - two poppers (one either side) : done, 'til lthey became flying poppers.

 

The back has two big screws holding the rail down : the 2 screws did their job perfectly, the poor old soft top was flying, attached to the back frame, as Superman' cape

 

There should be two elasticated straps at the front that would have retained everything : yes, they were there, and correctly attached. Don't ask me where they are now.

 

New frames are available at Moss : yupee, this one was new too. But I need to find what -if- was wrong or I'll destroy another one, again , unless I never again exceed 100 Mph +

 

No joke, we are talking about MdW : if I drive this babe like an old turtle, Badfrog will come back and kick my h**s by night, and he would be right to do so

 

 

PS - Merry Christmas to you and family too, dear Roger, and please take care to never follow a TR with a Surrey top at relatively high speed.

 

Edited December 22, 2014 by Chris59

[RogerH]

Love it.

 

Roger

[TR 2100]

The fit of the lip on the soft top into the slot

on the windscreen (formed between the ally

capping and the frame must be the critical

point.

 

I recall a recent thread (on soft tops) that

questioned the type of metal strip fitted into

the soft top.

 

That being said, 100mph is going to put a

lot of strain on any softtop.

 

AlanR

[Tom Fremont]

Hi Chris, aka RF,

 

I suspect TRIUMPH never envisioned use of the Surrey soft top at such speeds. I have had the front lip peel out partially at 80 mph in the rain, so have learned its limits.

 

Some capping pieces give a very tight fit for the front lip of the vinyl top; others are much looser. I had the tight kind loosen at speed in rain, so assume the looser type ( which I also have on another car ) would do even worse.

 

I suggest using the hard top or none at all if doing triple digit speeds . If you must use it at high speed you need to devise a better fastening method for the front; others on this forum can instruct you how but you may need a different screen frame to utilize the later hood latch devices .

[RogerH]

Just had a thought. The fabric roof needs to be tensioned so that it sits tight in the cap.

With increasing speed the fabric starts to flap (resonate) and could then pop out of the front.

 

I understand that when erecting the roof the rear tensioning nuts stay in a fixed position and the centre section sort of slides sideways to make fitting easier.

On my car I have adjustable nuts on the back and tensioning is quite easy

 

This is a prototype that look tatty but worked OK

 

 

 

 

 

Roger

[Alec Pringle]

Surrey tops were not designed for high speed useage - probably why they are removable . . . . .

 

Back in the 70s a pal of mine lost his TR5 steel lid at over the ton on the motorway. It hit a truck coming the other way, slammed through the windscreen just missing the driver, through the back of the cab, through the front of the box body, and out again through the rear roller door . . . . before demolishing the front of the following van.

 

80mph top whack with a Surrey . . . . .

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[peejay4A]

Here you go Chris. This is how I got my Surrey top to stay in place at <ahem> high speed. The soldered butt joints didn't hold up but the brass strips retain themselves fine.

http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/48275-surrey-top-metal-pieces/

[Geko]

Few months ago I gathered all I had left of drawing skills to sketch this.

The problem occurs when the front lip rests against the rubber of the windscreen whereas it should rest above the rubber and against the leading edge of the windscreen frame.

 

 

 

 

wscp.pdf

[ianc]

In 1969 and early 1970s, I used to take the alloy lid off my TR4 during spring/summer/autumn, and even at 100 mph, the soft-top never came adrift.

The fit of the retainer under the rail at the front is critical - should be fully inserted, and good and tight. The poppers either side just stop it flapping at the edges. The hooks either side are scarcely strong enough to retain the thing, and after a few years the elastic gets pretty tired.

The top should be under tension from front to rear.

Ian Cornish

[jerrytr5]

Junk the dodgy leading edge fastening and fit a TR or Spitfire hood frame header rail to the Surrey. Easy mod and safe for 110+.

Jerry

[stuart]

I know of one occasion where the soft top peeled of at around 95 and took out the back window and did a lot of damage to the rear deck and boot lid on a TR5 so you were lucky Chris that it wasnt worse.

Stuart.

[Rob Salisbury]

Junk the dodgy leading edge fastening and fit a TR or Spitfire hood frame header rail to the Surrey. Easy mod and safe for 110+.

Jerry

+1 for this mod, only way to really stop your Surrey getting in a flap and going flying, been there done that!!

Cheers Rob

[peejay4A]

I'd be interested in how easy the mod is. Does it use the TR6 style snail cam fasteners and if so is the female part present in the TR4/4A screen frame?

[jerrytr5]

You just need to match the header rail with the screen frame. The 5 uses the same 'snail cam' (great name - very descriptive) as the 6 or late Spit's, and the captive nuts are present. The 4A uses over-the-centre catches (also common to early Spits I think). I assume the captive nuts would be present in a 4A frame. The 4 might present a problem as don't they use the daft metal strip for the standard hood too?

Having located a header rail, unpick the leading edge of your Surrey (or get a new one made in Chris's case) and there is enough material to attach to the header in the standard way. The frame may need modification to either fit into the header rail, or fit under it - I've seen both.

You may need to replace the ally capping with the non-Surrey type.

Jerry

[Chris59]

Thanks guys for your replies.

 

Yes, I realise that I've been lucky to not see any damage on the body, except a black scar on the boot, who should be easy to remove with some polish (polishing MdW, are you kidding ?!!).

 

I'll check the length/thickness/shape of the insert in the front soft top "pocket", but won't waste to much time with this : this car was commonly known as Lady Anne, ie with a shortened windscreen, empty doors and no hood.

 

This Surrey top was fitted (by Jef and me) to allow him to use his TR with less wind in the neck, but it wasn't an easy choice to make, after so many years with Lady Anne.

 

So, I'll try another time with a spare new frame I've in stock, once the hood itself will be repaired, but if it flew again, the back Surrey frame will end its life somewhere in my barns, and I'll go back to the more appropriate (and less sensible to speed) tonneau cover (with a soft top frame stored under, to calm down the missus).

Edited December 23, 2014 by Chris59

[roy53]

Totally agree with Ian Cornish on this ,the front must be fitted right up into the screen capping tight.Then no problems at high speeds

 

ROY

[Chris59]

It was, Roy, it was.

 

I've checked the dimensions and shape of the steel inserts in the front of the soft top : nothing is good there, no surprise it decide to slip out of the capping/screen frame interstice.

 

I may try with different inserts, but not sure : the more I think about it, the more I think MdW will dissapear in favor of Lady Anne' ancestor.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Chris59

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Chris,

 

throw the bloody Surrey away.

 

It wasn't J-F, it was his last ditch attempt to keep driving, LA to MdW, Badfrog's bataille de camarone . . . . .

 

Skip fodder, it does not belong.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Chris59]

Yep Captain : before to remove the back light (who is as new, I painted it myself for Jef !), I must find a hood frame, or the missus will never accept to get in this TR4.

 

May be there is one in Badfrog' garage, I'll ask to MC to have a look.

 

BTW, I may have one in my barns, but it can take me several hours of crawling before to find -or not- it.

 

I would be glad if somebody ciould post a picture of the fiitings of the hood frame on a TR4, ie the ones just behind the seats, thanks !

Edited December 26, 2014 by Chris59

[Richard V]

If your thumbs dont go blue as you push the front lip of the roof into the slot it is too loose! I think tension is the secret, with good rubber grommets at the front. Ive seen roofs installed with just the thin metal pins in the 1/2 inch holes. I had one roof section with an aluminum strip in the front which didnt work, it was replaced by a spring steel one with no problems since. Mine is a stiff canvas roof which holds at 100 with no problem. The old one was a vinyl thing which flapped badly and also flipped back once.

I dont remember a hood frame at L'hay, but maybe at Coye?

 

Lady Annes origional weather equipment (helmet and goggles) are now in use on Austerlite

[TR 2100]

Chris -

 

Will this do you?

 

 

 

The main part of the hood frame should be erected

with the short lever (on the triangular bracket) set

horizontal.

Then the lever can be pushed vertical, jacking the

hood frame up against the roof.

 

AlanR

[d2alfa]

You just need to match the header rail with the screen frame. The 5 uses the same 'snail cam' (great name - very descriptive) as the 6 or late Spit's, and the captive nuts are present. The 4A uses over-the-centre catches (also common to early Spits I think). I assume the captive nuts would be present in a 4A frame. The 4 might present a problem as don't they use the daft metal strip for the standard hood too?

Having located a header rail, unpick the leading edge of your Surrey (or get a new one made in Chris's case) and there is enough material to attach to the header in the standard way. The frame may need modification to either fit into the header rail, or fit under it - I've seen both.

You may need to replace the ally capping with the non-Surrey type.

Jerry

Hi Jerry,

I have just fitted the rear frame and window to my 4a. Also managed to get a 4a soft top frame header rail.

Understand about unpicking the leading edge of the surrey soft top ready to glue to the header rail and understand about the need to modifying the frame to allow fixing at the front.

Have you access to pictures or details of the mods to either fit into the header rail or fit under it?

Regards

David