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TR4 Electric Fuel pump conversion


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Hi All, with an eye on the winter jobs, I'm starting to look at replacing the mechanic fuel pump and filter bowl with an electric pump.

 

I'm thinking of this for two reason, firstly as part of a security measure so I can easily and subtly shut off the fuel flow to stop the car going far if somebody tries to steal her.

I also have a remote GPS tracker (still to fit) that has the facility to shut off/trigger two electrical systems remotely via a mobile phone so one can be for the fuel pump, should they find the hidden cut-off switch.

Secondly fuel evaporates from the float bowls alarming quickly (seems like a mater of days) and I have to prime using the lever on the pump or crank over for what seems like ages.

 

Although I do like the look of the glass filter bowl on the side of the pump, so will look at possibly putting a glass bowl sediment type trap for aesthetic reasons similar to the ones that used to be fitted to commercial diesel vehicles back in the day, if I can find one, possibly utilising the set screws on the blocks fuel pump blanking plate along with a home made bracket.

 

I've read a couple of threads here on the forum and I'm planning to fit a Facet solid state (box type) pump as I've read that the red top cylinder type may be noisy.

 

I'm thinking of putting the pump (on rubber mounts) inside the car behind the cardboard cover by the tank and bring the fuel pipe up through the floor to the pump and back out again. I'm also going to replace the metal fuel pipe with a continuous length of 8mm rubber (or whatever material they are now) fuel injection fuel pipe along the chassis. I've also read that an inertia switch is recommended so will put one of those under the bonnet too for good measure.

 

My questions are:

1) Are they noisy or do they just emit a light hum?

2) Do I need a fuel pressure regulator as the one I'm looking at reaches 5psi which is a lot more (relatively) than the standard mechanical pump or an SU electric pump. Or will the float values cope with this pressure ok.

3) Do I need a pre filter with these pumps and does anybody know if the cylinder type have a mesh filler built in?

4) is there anything else the knowledgeable can suggest/have done that I may have missed.

 

Sorry for war and peace, but I wanted to try to be concise.

 

Regards Mark

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If your going to fit the pump up next to the tank then an electronic SU pump would be fine and they are silent, a pressure regulator would be good, the Sytec one is fine, the remote glass filter bowl from a MK2/S type Jaguar would do fine and it has a gauze filter in it. Definitely need a collision switch and the Landrover type is ideal for that. I would still keep the solid front to back pipe though.

Stuart.

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Hi Mark,

how about fitting the leccy pump in the boot with a pre-filter and then - here is the clever bit - route it through the existing mechy pump.

Remove the internal valves and the operating lever.

 

That way you keep the filter bowl and the aesthetics.

 

Roger

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Hi Mark,

how about fitting the leccy pump in the boot with a pre-filter and then - here is the clever bit - route it through the existing mechy pump.

Remove the internal valves and the operating lever.

 

That way you keep the filter bowl and the aesthetics.

 

Roger

Hi Roger, yes a truly devious and cunning plan :ph34r:. and it would save me about £60 for a blanking plate and filter head.

 

Mark

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If your going to fit the pump up next to the tank then an electronic SU pump would be fine and they are silent, a pressure regulator would be good, the Sytec one is fine, the remote glass filter bowl from a MK2/S type Jaguar would do fine and it has a gauze filter in it. Definitely need a collision switch and the Landrover type is ideal for that. I would still keep the solid front to back pipe though.

Stuart.

HI, yes I'd looked at the SU type pumps, as they are (or were in my youth) very quite and give the tell tale clicking when fuel is running low, but the cost put me off a bit, but I guess you get what you pay for. Thanks for the tips.

 

Mark

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I'm quite averse to having the pump inside the car so it is installed just above the LH trailing arm. Where the fuel pipes are running close to the exhaust I armored them with a stretched spring. I have only one monster filter -attached with an ignition coil bracket- connected where the fuel pipe sticks out of the chassis and starts running in the engine bay. Also swapped the lids of the float chambers and running the pipe towards the rear of the engine

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Edited by Geko
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I'm quite averse to having the pump inside the car so it is installed just above the LH trailing arm. Where the fuel pipes are running close to the exhaust I armored them with a stretched spring. I have only one monster filter -attached with an ignition coil bracket- connected where the fuel pipe sticks out of the chassis and starts running in the engine bay. Also swapped the lids of the float chambers and running the pipe towards the rear of the engine

Hi Stef, I think bmc shared your concern in the 70's. I had an Austin 1300GT (mustard yellow and a full length Webesto sun roof).

It had an SU fuel pump which was half in the boot and half under the car. The electric end was in the boot and came through a hole in the body shell by the tank with rubber seal and the mechanical end lived outside.

 

Like the idea of switching float chamber tops to route fuel pipe around the back of the head.

 

Mark

Edited by MRG1965
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Hi Mark,

 

If you save £60 using Rogers cunning and ingenious plan to reuse the original mechanical fuel pump housing only, then why not use that amount and save your life and those of your occupants by fitting a rear of cockpit alloy firewall between the fuel tank and the occupants ? The original cockpit fibreboard cover will still fit in front of it and it will be unseen in normal use - just safer.

 

Mick Richards

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Fit a manual cut-off valve at the point where thefuel pipe enters the engine bay - it was a stupid cost-cutting move by Triumph which eliminated the valve after the sidescreen cars.

Ian Cornish

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Hi Mark,

 

If you save £60 using Rogers cunning and ingenious plan to reuse the original mechanical fuel pump housing only, then why not use that amount and save your life and those of your occupants by fitting a rear of cockpit alloy firewall between the fuel tank and the occupants ? The original cockpit fibreboard cover will still fit in front of it and it will be unseen in normal use - just safer.

 

Mick Richards

HI Mick, yes the fireproofing properties of the fibreboard is a concern in an accident or if(when) a leak develops. And I was a bit surprised when I took it off recently to dry out the carpets and fit sound proofing (windscreen shattered [laminated now] on the way back from the IWE and filled the car like a swimming pool well, an inch anyway, whilst we waited for a lift).

I'll certainly look at your idea as 3/16" or 1/8" Ali checker plate would do the job and would be easily cut, shaped, drilled and is relatively inexpensive.

 

Mark

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Fit a manual cut-off valve at the point where thefuel pipe enters the engine bay - it was a stupid cost-cutting move by Triumph which eliminated the valve after the sidescreen cars.

Ian Cornish

Hi Ian, yes its a bit of a pain to have to clamp the pipe with a brake pipe clamp when I cleaned out the filter bowl (something else in the way). Was hoping to find a pump with a positive shut off value, but not seen one stating it is included. Added to shopping list.

 

Mark

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Hi Mark,

 

I think you'll find the thickness of the alloy sheet needn't be as thick as you suggest, it does have to conform with the shape and curvatures of the rear frame including smaller attached panels that cover over the top of the wheelarches. If you want a shortcut you'll find many of the TR specialists will offer a precut alloy panel (probably 1mm or less thick) which is easy to form and get to comply with the shape needed. As with the individual nature of the build of our cars it will need final "tailoring" to achieve the best result.

 

Remember you need to use an intumescent sealer underneath it (although a good seal of Indasa windscreen sealer is easy to apply and doesn't easily burn) to help seal all the cracks and when we use it in competition normally a fibreglass overlay on the edge completes the job, although I think we use the fibreglass to show the safety scrutineers that there is an edge seal being used also. Remember we are not trying to turn the boot area into a pond for petrol, just prevent or delay the bursting of 10 gallons of fuel through the rear fibreboard area, and allow the occupants a chance to recover and remove themselves from an accident without the added preoccupation of trying to avoid burning fuel on their laps !

 

Mick Richards

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Hi Mick,

every time you post you seem to appear to be saying 'fit this panel before you die'. You have now convinced me and that'll be my next job on the 4A.

You always mention an Ali panel but I assume a 1mm mild steel would be fine.

 

 

Roger

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In the event of a rear end shunt that's severe enough to rupture the fuel tank what is the chance of a 1mm aluminium sheet surviving the impact without similarly rupturing. I can see how the argument goes but is there empirical evidence to support it?

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Hi Roger,

 

Crikey...didn't know that my repeating of my advice of fitting a rear alloy firewall came with it the mantra ..."or die", but now you come to mention it it's a snappy phrase !

 

The TR owners of yesteryear have been through all these little ...foibles of the TRs including the failure of TR4as - 6 models without strengthened front wishbone modification which I mentioned in the "Steel Surrey window" thread in Oct 2012 backing up Stuarts thoughts. I think that it behoves the people who can remember these failures and safety enhancements to continue to remind the current crop of owners to help avoid future occurrences, after that it's up to you.

 

As regards fitting a steel firewall panel in place of an Alloy, yes that will do nicely especially if welded in postion although riveted every 25mm will do the job fitted with a suitable sealer.

 

Pete,

 

The rear alloy firewall is the recommended MINIMUM safety firewall and is endorsed by the RAC Motorsports Association for fitment to TRs. Given that these cars will be in a high risk environment the RAC has obviously gauged the risk reduction to be sufficient even in these more dangerous circumstances to allow them to compete and so it's fair to use this as empirical evidence that these precautions suffice.

It's always difficult when you have just completed your rebuild and don't fancy removing the Surrey Backlight to get the Alloy sheeting in, but the fitment can be done with just loosening the nuts from the boot and lifting the backlight to slip the firewall under.

 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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Hi Mark,

 

I think you'll find the thickness of the alloy sheet needn't be as thick as you suggest, it does have to conform with the shape and curvatures of the rear frame including smaller attached panels that cover over the top of the wheelarches. If you want a shortcut you'll find many of the TR specialists will offer a precut alloy panel (probably 1mm or less thick) which is easy to form and get to comply with the shape needed. As with the individual nature of the build of our cars it will need final "tailoring" to achieve the best result.

 

Remember you need to use an intumescent sealer underneath it (although a good seal of Indasa windscreen sealer is easy to apply and doesn't easily burn) to help seal all the cracks and when we use it in competition normally a fibreglass overlay on the edge completes the job, although I think we use the fibreglass to show the safety scrutineers that there is an edge seal being used also. Remember we are not trying to turn the boot area into a pond for petrol, just prevent or delay the bursting of 10 gallons of fuel through the rear fibreboard area, and allow the occupants a chance to recover and remove themselves from an accident without the added preoccupation of trying to avoid burning fuel on their laps !

 

Mick Richards

HI Mick, yes the 1mm would be a lot easier to fettle with and if somebody has already made something that is a close fit then that is all the better providing the cost is reasonable.

 

Just to wade in to whole fit it or die discussion :D . I think it is a valid upgrade even for a road car. The peace of mind it represents for slight and moderate accidents is money well spent, as I said further up I was a bit concerned when I discovered that it was only cardboard that was between me 12 Gallons unleaded.

But if the impact is so bad that the bulkhead splits, you probably going to be passed worrying... Maybe I need to consider airbags :o

 

Definitely an idea you feel passionately about and one I'll look in to, given its relative simplicity.

 

Mark

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It doesn't need a huge shunt to rupture an old fuel tank . . . . .

 

I well remember the account of a TR chum many years ago. He had to do an emergency stop, suicidal pedestrian . . . . whatever was in the boot walloped the aged and unprotected tank, which promptly sprung a leak as the rear wall of the tank parted company from the rusty base. Our hero realised the fact of a leak only when he braked hard for traffic lights and found petrol flowing into the car from behind his seat.

 

Exit hero smartly, by the time he'd got the extinguisher out of the boot, fuel had leaked through the passenger compartment floor and onto the exhaust. That's when he discovered that an 'extinguisher' the size of a can of fly spray is good for nothing except getting yourself burnt . . . . not man enough to put out more than a Havana.

 

A rear firewall is helpful in that sort of situation, so is a useful extinguisher, as in 1kg minimum and preferably 2kg.

 

Plus the firewall does stiffen up the body and cuts down the rattle factor . . . .

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Hi Mick,

I'm now working on how to keep the speakers installed in the rear bulkhead.

Some sort of metal tube surrounding the back of the speaker and sealed in place.

 

I wonder what black sabbath will sound like with the speaker gurgling in petrol and flames licking around its nether regions.

 

Roger

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Roger,

 

Not sure about Black Sabbath, I'd have thought "The crazy world of Arthur Brown, "I am the God of Hellfire" ....Fire...Tarara would have scored heavily though.

 

Mick Richards

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  • 2 months later...

Hi Guys, This is probably a stuipd reaction to reading this thead but do I have to remove the tank to fit the firewall? I previously removed the back cardboard panel and there are struts in the way of putting whole sheet in or are you suggesting fitting it from inside the cabin?

Charles

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Hi Charles,

 

No the tank can be left in place and after removal of the fibreboard from inside the cockpit you can get access to the frame in front of the tank and slip the alloy sheeting in from the cockpit.

Even if you have a Surrey backlight fitted there's just enough space to be able to loosen the nuts off enough on the securing studs underneath from the boot side, to lift the backlight up to allow the alloy sheeting to be slipped in from the cockpit side and under the front of the backlight. Don't forget the sealer in between the alloy sheet and the steel frame and then rivet every 25mm around the perimeter, and then slip the fibreboard back in front of the alloy bulkhead and all is well and nobody knows

 

Mick Richards

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  • 3 weeks later...

Great thanks Mick, another Summer job!

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