Robin Powell Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) AC Fuel Pump TR3-4A Does anyone know of a source of the oil seal that the Diaphragm actuating rod goes through as I have 2 pumps where they have failed and the parts book doesn't even show them although the manual does? The email adddress given in an old post (2010) no longer functions. Thanks Edited July 21, 2014 by Robin Powell Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 The Roadster Factory has them in their pump kit, although you'd have to ask them about separate pricing. There is likely an Australian supplier as well, who may be the manufactuere as well as retalier (Viv will know more -- there's another ongoing thread on this subject.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bob-menhennett Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Robin I thought I had one in my gasket box ..but sorry no joy. Just to confirm is it the Gasket,Fuel Pump to Block Part no139041 £1.30 inc Vat on the Rimmer Bros website www.rimmerbros.co.uk ? Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Larnder Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Hi Robin Get onto Dave Davies in Manchester, he has my pump at present. He was recommended by Stuart. 01942 891447. Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
derekh Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'vejust looked at the repair kit which I have. This has the oil seal and was supplied by Sparex for a TE20 series Fergusson. Regards, Derek. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Robin Powell Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Thanks Don, I was hoping to find something nearer to home but if that fails I will try your suggestions Thanks Dave & Derek I will call Davies tomorrow and also have a look at Fergusson spares (I used to have a Grey Fergie, moved up to a MF135 now) Bob It is the seal within the pump which stops oil from the cam mechanism getting up to the diaphragm and there are no part numbers in any of the TR suppliers including Revingtons and it is not supplied with the pump repair kits in this country which seems rather an omission. Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
derekh Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Robin, Yes it is the rubber "top hat" shaped seal. You can see it in the picture of the kit on the Sparex web site. Derek. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'vejust looked at the repair kit which I have. This has the oil seal and was supplied by Sparex for a TE20 series Fergusson. Regards, Derek. Do you have a link or a part number? I tried to look at it on several of the Sparex sites and struck out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
derekh Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Sorry, cant copy the link to the page, but if you go tp sparex.com then use their search facility for "fuel pump" it will take you to a page where you can select "massey fergusson" then select TE20 from the page that appears. REgards, Derek. Edited July 21, 2014 by derekh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Sorry, cant copy the link to the page, but if you go tp sparex.com then use their search facility for "fuel pump" it will take you to a page where you can select "massey fergusson" then select TE20 from the page that appears. REgards, Derek. Found it under TEF20. Part number S.40567. http://v2.gb.sparex.com/ItemDetails/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemNumber=40567 The diaphragm isn't right, of course, but some of the other small parts look OK as far as I can tell from the image. Edited July 21, 2014 by Don H. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Larnder Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Don If you look at the diaphragm operating shaft, my one that let me down in France, had no metal left above the two side slots which fit into the linkage to the cam finger.That top hat is the oil seal although the one from TRF was a lot smaller than the original one in my pump, I prefer the old one. Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Robin Powell Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 As Davies was getting short of supplies and was keeping his stock for repairs I ordered the Sparex kit for the oil seal. They are doing a special offer at the moment so it isn't too pricey. http://www.malpasonline.co.uk/itm/Fuel-Pump-Repair-Kits/Fuel-Lift-Pump-Repair-Kit/40567#sthash.T3WiQQP0.dpbs Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) ..top hat is the oil seal...although the one from TRF was a lot smaller than the original one in my pump... Hi Dave -- The new TRF fuel pump diaphragm shaft oil seal is indeed slightly smaller than the fifty-year-old one I took out of my car. The inside diameter of the new TRF seal is ±0.20 inches. The original seal is ±0.23 inches. The steel diaphragm shafts on the original and the new TRF parts are both ±0.25 in. There are limits to measuring elastomers with a caliper, of course -- these are intended to be indicative measurements. New on left, old on right in these closeups. The outside diameters are so close to the same I can't see or measure a difference. New on top, old on bottom. What would the original seal have been prior to fifty years of compression set in the rubber? Dunno, but almost certainly smaller than it is now. I decided to replace my seal. Obviously most suppliers don't think this necessary (hence the top hat seal's absence from most kits). Here's a side-by-side of the full TRF kit next to (most of) the parts from my original. You'll note a few additional differences, as in the figure of eight gasket for the check valves replaced by two round gaskets. Edited July 22, 2014 by Don H. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Larnder Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Hi Don You have taken this to task with all those measurements, I just did a visual comparison. In your pump housing, how were the valves held in place? the book shows a retainer plate and two small screws, mine only had the valves held in by some sort of material distortion but neatly done, however it appears that the valves cannot be replaced by those in the kits both TRF and my genuine A.C repair kit still in it´s original box with part number quite clearkly marked. Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james christie Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 I too have an AC repair kit (maybe two!) waiting to be fitted to a fuel pump which I have recently removed from my 3A (perforated membrane). But I sure would like to get my hands on one of those top hat oil seals, as the original one has gone brittle with age and was (inevitably?) damaged when I took it all apart. It seems to me to be an obvious part of a reconditionning kit. Why is it that our favourite suppliers won't or are can't supply it ? Another fact that may or may not add to this debate. Somebody, supposedly in the know, told me that red and black membranes differ in their compatatibilty with lead free fuel. Can anyone confirm this and remind me which is which ! james Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 In your pump housing, how were the valves held in place? the book shows a retainer plate and two small screws... The book illustration is exactly what I had, Dave -- a simple plate and screws. Piece o'cake to remove and replace. The top hat shaft seal is a lot trickier bit to get at. The metal sealing piece that holds it in place is staked via the pump housing. One has to get past that to remove it, and then re-seat the seal holder. Somebody, supposedly in the know, told me that red and black membranes differ in their compatatibilty with lead free fuel. Can anyone confirm this and remind me which is which ! I wouldn't put too much stock in the the color, James, and lead-free has nothing to do with it. The key point is the effect of ethanol on the rubber-coated fabric diaphragm material. Old rubber containing (likely) a high portion of natural latex will be quickly attacked by the ethanol in most modern motor fuels. The modern diaphragms are based on a specific class of synthetic rubber -- nitrile rubber -- that resists ethanol. The company that made the diaphragm material in the parts I showed above, EFFBE, uses red. But nothing magic about that -- what you need is the kit supplier's assurance of ethanol compatibility. Over here, one of the common sources of ethanol-free motor fuels for those who seek it out is the gas pump at a marina. It's rare for a boat motor fuel to contain ethanol, probably because the fuel may spend considerable time in the tank and the higher hydgroscopicity of the fuel can cause corrosion. A friend a few states over has an early TR2 with all the original rubber (including the tires!) and he drives to a local maria to fill it up. There's a station across the state from me -- nearer some of the holiday lakes -- that has ethanol-free option ("E0") at the pump. I haven't found one of those close to me or I'd be using it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Larnder Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Hi Don You seem to have low octane fuel over there with 87.89,and 91. We have 95 and 98 and the pumps with E10 MUST have it displayed on the nozzles etc. Never thought about the marine angle, so I will ask my boating friend to see what they have in the marina. What does the 2869 on the 87 pump surely not dollars per litre or U.S. gallon? What do you pay for the three types we pay around €1.45/litre for 95 and I think €1.60 for 98 (don´t use the stuff in either the TR3A or the Peugeot). In France it is more and in Italy even more still, in fact on one motorway we had to pay €2.05/ litre for 98 ass 95 was not available, maybe that is what eat my diaphragm spindle away as the diaphragm was stii O.K. when I took the pump to pieces. If my memory serves me correctly the price in B.C. was $1.35/litre. Air temps here in a shady area in our garden have exceeded blood temperature of 37ºC on quite a few days, don´t know what it is in the direct sun, but it is too hot to drive the 3A in the middle of the day, so we and the club now do evening drive outs starting at 6:00p.m. and have a tapas and a pint in the local tavernas usually next to the sea. Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 US octane measurements are different to UK/EU ones. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) US octane measurements are different to UK/EU ones. Stuart. Exactly right -- US octane numbers are the average of Research (RON) and Motor (MON) octane numbers, (R+M)/2, sometimes called AKI for anti-knock index. The rest of the world mostly uses RON only. Our fuel may or may not be labelled for ethanol -- it's a state-by-state requirement and there are a dozen or more that don't require it. My state does, and that pump in the photo would have been labelled -- but it would have been a sticker elsewhere on the pump. It's sometimes with the octane rating and sometimes not. That image was taken in December 2013 in Kansas City, Missouri and shows "2.869", the price in US$ per US gallon. Prices for our fuel vary region-to-region and with the market, and can vary a lot. Right now in my middle-America state "regular" fuel (87 AKI, probably 91-92 RON) is selling for about $3.25/gallon, or 0.64€/L. Our "premium" fuel (92-93 AKI, around 98 RON) is about $3.65/gallon or 0.71€/L. 37° C isn't uncommon here -- gonna be about that this weekend -- but it's a looong drive to get good tapas! Edited July 23, 2014 by Don H. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 And a US gallon is different to UK one as well. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Larnder Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 Stuiart and DonH Yes! I knew that the U.S. gallon is a lot smaller than our imperial one, so you have to uprate the price to compare quantities. Funnily enough in Canada they sell it by the litre so there is no problem working out what you get for your money. Not sure about the different octane ratings shown on the pumps, can´t remember. Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Larnder Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 Hi Robin I have just got back my pump from Dave Davies and it is a genuine Made In England pump so cast into the body. My one I sent him was a chinese lump of cr*p eaten away at the end of the actuator shaft.. Dave asked me to tell all my TR friends not to send him anymore Chinese pumps as he refuses to work on them. Now with the pump he sent two joints for it to be fixed to the block. One is made or some sort of very thin and flexible rubberish material that only has a slit through which the cam follower passes. This is to stop oil getting into the pump (it also has the top hat section inside) as it also has a drain hole in the bottom. The second one is a conventional gasket. He tells me that if the pump is pumping too much petrol all you do is put another joint in between to bring the cam follower arm a little further away from the cam, conversely if it isn´t pumping enough. He also advised me to make very certain that the cam lobe is pointing downwards when installing the pump to make very sure that the cam follower is not BELOW the cam or it will get sheared off by the force of the engine turning the cam. I also decided to sort out the standard fuel tap which as we know had a cork plug to shut off the fuel. If this dries out then it shrinks and you will never get the tap to shut off and may even leak through the top of the tap all the time. My cure was to make up a bronze type of cylinder with an o/d of 12.5 mm and an I/D to suit the diameter of the original shaft. The length of the piece is the same as that of the cork section. At each end of the piece I reduced the diameter to 10mm being that of the I/D of a neoprene ¨O¨ring of 13mm O/D to suit the bore of the tap. It works perfectly, so I didn´t need to buy any special fuel tap and it´s fittings to suit my 5/16¨O/D copper delivery pipe from the tank with a compression fitting to suit the tap, or my braided stainless steel pipe to the fuel pump, and it looks original, not that I am interested in concours competitions. BTW. the price Dave charged was no more than the price of a new Chinese lump of **** from our so called repro and after market suppliers ( no names mentioned). Dave Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 Dave, if a well-intentioned, conscientious, and competent mechanic putting an overdrive in ones car notices an oil leak from the fuel pump gasket, replaces it, and accidentally gets the fuel pump lever below the cam eccentric rather than above, it turns out the pump will work, albeit feebly, for about a hundred miles until the lever wears too much to keep the bowls full and the car strands one in an intersection twenty miles from home. Further more, it will be possible for one to limp home by manually filling the bowls with the priming lever and driving 1/8 - 1/2 mile depending on hills, and it will prove one becomes faster in rebuilding and replacing pumps with practice. Ask me how I know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Larnder Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 Don Glad to see that both pumps were genuine ones by their cam followers not laminated steel like the TR4 and 4A and the Chinese ****. Your solution asppears to hold up for me too as when I first got it in and it would not pump (even using the tickler) even though I had turned the engine over on the solenoid but with the plugs out and there was no marks on the follower when I took it out and refitted it, now it pumps furiously on the tickler. Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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