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FIA Homologations for Triumphs


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In another therad, I suggested, without knowing, that a TR2 for an historic event might need to consult the FIA Homologation spec for that car. Homologation numbers aren't easy to find for historics, impossible on the FIA website, but I found this list : http://www.vrcbc.ca/wp-content/uploads/FIA_HOMOLOGATION_Nos_Spreadsheet.xls

 

I've been through that list - 3000-odd cars! - and extracted all theTriumphs I can see. It comes out here as a rather jumbled list, but readable, I hope. And it doesn't go back any further than TR4s, so does anyone know a better list, or the TR2 Number? The MSA might be able to help. I think they will sell you a copy of the homologation if you want.

JOhn

 

 

 

5015 1 Triumph T2000 1998 01/01/1966 GB 4

5093 1 Triumph Herald 12/ 50 1147 01/05/1966 GB 1

5113 1 Triumph Triumph 1300 1296 01/06/1966 GB 1

5333 1 Triumph 2.5 PI 2498 15/01/1970 GB 3

1425 2 Triumph 1330 1296 GB FM

1468 2 Triumph Standard Vitesse 2000 1998 GB FM

530 3 Triumph Spitfire Mk II 1147 01/02/1966 GB 1

528 3 Triumph TR 4A IRS 2138 01/02/1966 GB 0

529 3 Triumph TR - 4 A 2138 01/02/1966 GB 1

553 3 Triumph Spitfire GT 6 1998 04/07/1966 GB 2

554 3 Triumph Vitesse 2000 transf. Gr. 1 GB FM

561 3 Triumph Spitfire Mk III 1296 GB FM

575 3 Triumph TR 250 2498 23/10/1967 GB 0

576 3 Triumph TR 5 2498 13/09/1967 GB 0

605 3 Triumph GT6 Mk II transf. Gr. 3 1998 GB FM

3010 3 Triumph TR 6 2498 01/01/1970 GB 8

3054 3 B.L. Triumph Spitfire 1296 01/07/1973 GB FM

3055 3 Triumph GT 6 Mk II 1998 01/07/1973 GB FM

5117 A B.L. Triumph Acclaim 1335 01/03/1983 GB 1

5477 A B.L. Triumph Dolomite Sprint 1854 01/07/1972 GB 0 Tr

5542 A B.L. Triumph Dolomite Sprint 1998 01/01/1974 GB 10 Tr

654 B B.L. Triumph TR 8 3492 01/04/1978 GB 10 Tr

3054 B B.L. Triumph Spitfire 1296 01/07/1973 GB 0 Tr

3071 B B.L. Triumph TR 7 1998 01/10/1975 GB 6 Tr

40 GT Triumph Herald 1200 Coupe 1147 30/06/1961 GB 0

41 GT Triumph Herald 1200 Convertible 1147 30/06/1961 GB 0

48 GT Triumph TR 4 2138 16/01/1962 GB FM

61 GT Triumph TR 4 1991 16/01/1962 GB 0

98 GT Triumph TR 4 2138 29/01/1963 GB 0

99 GT Triumph TR 4 1991 29/01/1963 GB 0

133 GT Triumph TR 4 2138 05/09/1963 GB 0

165 GT Triumph Spitfire 4 - 1964 1147 12/04/1964 GB 3

195 GT Triumph TR 4A IRS 2138 01/06/1965 GB 0

196 GT Triumph TR 4 A 1991 GB FM

197 GT Triumph Spitfire 4 Mk II 1147 01/06/1965 GB 0

1003 T Triumph Standard Vanguard Six 1998 13/01/1960 GB 0

1004 T Triumph Herald 1200 Saloon 1147 27/04/1961 GB FM

1007 T Triumph Herald 1200 Estate 1147 14/12/1960 GB FM

1137 T Triumph Vitesse 6 Saloon 1596 05/10/1962 GB 0

1186 T Triumph Ensign de Luxe 2138 29/01/1963 GB FM

1193 T Triumph Herald 12/50 Saloon 1147 09/05/1963 GB FM

1274 T Triumph 2000 1998 13/01/1964 GB FM

Edited by john.r.davies
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The 'previous homologations' list is on the FIA website . . . . go to Sports, Regulations, Historic Racing, and then page 3 of the downloads.

 

Listing is nominally by make and model, but for Triumph purposes that means firstly under B the BL homologations from 1972 and the Dolomite Sprint through to 1983 and the Acclaim. The earlier Triumph homologations under T run from the Herald of 1960 to the TR6 and 2.5PI of 1970, and include the odd Standards for good measure. There are odd anomalies of dating and nomenclature, this list is not 100% accurate, but it is more user friendly than the old list.

 

There were no homologations prior to 1960, just as there was no Appendix J prior to 1961.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Aye John, and there's the rub . . . . .

 

Authenticity is in the eye of the beholder, and the makers and keepers of rules can be every bit as subjective as the rest of us on occasion.

 

As a starter for ten, both a FIA HTP and a FIVA ID-card are probably mandatory. Issued in the case of UK residents by the MSA and the FBHVC respectively.

 

In terms of the applications for both documents, any deviations from original standard production can and will lead to discussion, and whatever deviations must be proven to be either a period feature within the compass of current Appendix K or a necessary provision within the compass of current Appendix J . . . . . which in turn may be influenced by Appendix J of the period, in line with the provisions of current Appendix K.

 

That a particular feature was homologated certainly helps, but there may follow a requirement to demonstrate that said homologated feature was actually utilised in international competition, as opposed to appearing in national competition only, or not having been utilised at all despite having been homologated.

 

If that sounds like first cousin to Catch 22, then you're beginning to get the flavour of the exercise. Except that Catch 22 pales in comparison with some of the hoops that would-be historic competitors have to jump through. And Joseph Heller perhaps didn't quite grasp the awful concept of the Eurocrat Jobsworth Golden Hat syndrome.

 

From first hand experience, I would suggest that it is difficult if not impossible to comprehend the workings, not to say the pig headed obtuseness, of the regulatory authorities in terms of historic motor sport - just my opinion of course, and I'm doing my best to remain polite here.

 

As for getting a TR2 into the MM ? Money talks, one way or another, I'm sure deep pockets might help. Just my opinion, of course.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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  • 1 year later...

Available from the MSA

 

http://shop.msauk.org/productsList.asp?id=1560085

 

Bear in mind that homologation papers are controlled by the MSA in conjunction with the FIA.

 

Any unauthorised copying or distribution, let alone publishing, is likely to lead to sanction - and a competitor can soon enough lose his or her licence for the sake of a £42 fee for a set of papers.

 

What specific query do you need answering in terms of a TR4 ? The papers simply confirm the major production specifications, together with homologated options - and there were not many of the latter for the TR4.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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In Group 3 in1962, as I recall, there was no allowable provision for an alternative cylinder head, and none for 'the electrics', except that the head could be gas flowed, and metal removed (but not added ....).

 

As to carburettors, Group 3 allowed alternative carburettors to be specified without a specific number needing to be built/sold - which explains why Triumph (like Austin-Healey, with the 3000) chose twin-choke Webers as that alternative.

 

For TRTony - have I go that right, or is my memory failing ?

 

My advice to TIL58 is to get some homologation papers for the TR4, get the FIA Blue Book for the same period, read them carefully, and you will then know as much as anyone else. The problem, though is often in the interpretation of what the FIA actually intended, in some places....

 

 

Hon. Pres..

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FIA Appendix J 1961 can be found here . . . .

 

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/whistj?open

 

For Graham,

 

was that "FIA Blue Book" a slip of the keyboard, as in MSA Blue Book or FIA Yellow Book ? Or was the FIA book blue back then, given that I only had need of it from the end of the 60s and recall it as yellow !

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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FIA Appendix J 1961 can be found here . . . .

 

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/whistj?open

 

For Graham,

 

was that "FIA Blue Book" a slip of the keyboard, as in MSA Blue Book or FIA Yellow Book ? Or was the FIA book blue back then, given that I only had need of it from the end of the 60s and recall it as yellow !

 

Cheers

 

Alec

 

 

There now, I said my memory was failing ....

 

Hon. Pres.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Graham told me that, in 1962, roll cages were NOT permitted, but seat belts were - I assume that this was the reason why Austin Healeys used a hard top and Triumph used the fixed backlight and alloy lid. When Roy Fidler rolled 6VC in the 1963 RAC, it showed that reasonable protection was afforded for the crew!

Graham also explained that carte blanche was afforded to the entrants over the material used for "all panels licked by the wind", which was why the Healeys and Triumphs were able to fit alloy panels without any need for Homologation. Equally, fibreglass could have been used.

 

Paper 133 (the last set for the TR4s) lays out many of the standard features of the TR4, but then includes:

- the SAH inlet and 4-branch exhaust manifolds,

- the alternative axle ratios (3.7, 4.1, 4.3 and 4.55),

- limited slip differential (the first set didn't arrive until the 1963 Tulip),

- brake servo (although it would seem that none of the European drivers wanted or used this),

- 45DCOE Webers as alternative to SUs,

- 18 gallon and 120 litre (26 gallon) fuel tanks - the latter used by Kastner on racing TRs at Sebring, I believe,

- skid shield (of course!),

- aluminium sump (not used for rallies as if hit hard could crack and shed contents of sump, whereas steel just bends!),

- 48-spoke (never used) and 60-spoke wire wheels, the latter on 4.5J wheels,

- 5J steel wheels,

- 5J alloy wheels (fitted by Kastner for the 1964 Shell 4000 Rally in Canada, and still on 6VC and 3VC when they returned here),

- Alfin drums (not used, as no benefit perceived by crews, so Graham told me),

 

Ian Cornish

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  • 2 years later...

Hello everybody,

 

I would like to know if someone have the fia paper n 48

The fia dont have it and I would like to make my htp for a pre 63 car

Otherwise anybody knows if the tr4 run in 1961 in a fia race or rally

So I can be in period e for the htp

 

Many thanks in advance

All the best

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  • 3 weeks later...

After disbanding the Comps Dept in 1961, Triumph did not create a new Comps Dept until early 1962, with Graham Robson as Comps Secretary, reporting to Harry Webster.

Apart from a shakedown test with Sprinzel & Robson in 6VC in the Trio Rally in April 1962, rallying did not start in earnest until May 1962, when 3/4/5VC were entered in the Tulip in 1991cc, unmodified form (better chance of success in the 2-litre class).

By the time of the Alpine Rally in June 1962, modifications to head, manifolding, camshaft & axle ratio had been made (and other things beside!).

Note that alloy body panels (used also on Big Healeys) did NOT require Homologation.

I would not expect to find any Homologation Papers for TR4 in 1961, and the list from John.R.Davies (post #1) would seem to confirm this.

Ian Cornish

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