McMuttley Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 OK, I'll start this one off with a general query - not quite pure competition, but evolution between road and track. I purchased TR3A this year which over the years has had a new 4 engine some further work done, 89 liners, manifold upgrade; but is otherwise relatively standard, it had more work done but the previous owner reversed much - I guess to 'restore originality'. The only condition of buying the 3A was a promise to err indoors that unlike t'other toys, it wouldn't be used for racing and crashing and blowing up - but to enjoy the summer. However, this does not rule out enjoying track days (and for that matter most country lanes). So far as i can see, nothing has been done to strengthen the chassis, upgrade suspension or steering etc. Budget is limited year on year so i want to prioritise works over say 2-3 winters; thus need to have options that are progressive and work as interims - i wont be doing the work and I am good at disassembly, but unable to put things back together ! So what suggestions are there and what is the important sequence... Chassis strengthening - what really needs to be done Roll cage - ideally one that bolts in so she doesn't notice Steering - I actually find the original steering quite pointy at the front - but that maybe that is just relative to the sloppy rear end Suspension - without destroying comfort, how do i get the back end from dragging along the ground without it hopping round local streets Engine - feels pretty strong - ....so focus on electrics, dyno conversion etc (loom looks very old)?? ? suggestions based upon experience gratefully received before I head to one of the specialists with my shopping list of winter 2013 priorities? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Forgive me about "banging on" about my favourite safety mod in any TR (other than a TR 7). Spend £50 quidish and fit a rear cockpit alloy firewall, will help prevent 10 gallons of flaming petrol surging into the passenger compartment and killing yourself and passenger hung upside down from safety belted seats. Nobody can see it when fitted and is the least you can do to remain safe. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Mick is correct. Remember handling and brakes number 1. Start with the rear springs and mounting of Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roy53 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Chassis NO all is ok here Steering NO if in good order So start on the suspension and brakes,dose it have 3 or 4a front set up ? anti roll bar? Roy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rod1883 Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Forgive me about "banging on" about my favourite safety mod in any TR (other than a TR 7). Spend £50 quidish and fit a rear cockpit alloy firewall, will help prevent 10 gallons of flaming petrol surging into the passenger compartment and killing yourself and passenger hung upside down from safety belted seats. Nobody can see it when fitted and is the least you can do to remain safe. Mick Richards Hi Mick, I'm keen to fit one of these. Any recommendations on make/supplier? Rod PS - You may remember me from Trent Group back in ~1978-81 when I was at Uni in Nottm. (Red/orange TR2 with a 3 grille at the time) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) Hi Rod, Yes, remember you well nice to chat again. Most of the competition minded TR specialists should be able to supply a rear cockpit firewall, TR Enterprises/Revingtons/Racetorations and many others. Last time I saw a price it was £50-60 quidish, should take all of about 1-2 hours when you can get to the area. Fit the firewall with non setting windscreen sealer under it against the framework and rivet the firewall to the frame. You should be able to get the rear fibreboard cockpit board to fit over the alloy panel. Of course if you have a rear roll bar/cage in the cockpit it helps prevent you being crushed when you roll the car swerving to miss a hedgehog, or even better stops the cockpit lozenging out of shape and keeps the white van which is T boning you out of your laps. We forget that these non integral pre crash deformable structures are hopeless at preventing injury to the passengers and we need to give them all the help they can get. Mick Richards Edited October 23, 2013 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elclem1 Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Hi guys an interesting topic, I have recently decided to put together a car one i bought earlier this year that i can use here in France and maybe the UK on the track (TR6), I note that 'those who know' have stressed the importance of starting on the rear suspension and brakes and a firewall - I am in the process of fitting a roll cage, but notice that the original fuel tank will not fit in the original place as the rear arms of the cage pass through where it would be , I am considering having an ally one made that will fit into the space where the spare wheel normally is. once fitted it would have an ally cover over the void and hence a fire wall in your experience would this work? I hope this question follows the original thread if not sorry ..... Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dykins Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Hi Mick, I'm keen to fit one of these. Any recommendations on make/supplier? Me too. I'm amazed that in 17 years of ownership I hadn't thought of getting one fitted as it seems such a sensible upgrade. Regards Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Andy, Yes, you will need to "tailor" the firewall around the roll cage bars which pass through the area where the fuel tank normally fits. This will take the form of slots to the appropriate depth in the firewall then feed the firewall around the cage members and rivet the firewall in place. Make a narrow piece of ally up which overlays the slots from the edge of the firewall up to the roll cage member and seal to the firewall with non setting sealer and rivet in place to the firewall. If you think of using your car in competition this mod would be mandatory. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rod1883 Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Hi Rod, Yes, remember you well nice to chat again. Most of the competition minded TR specialists should be able to supply a rear cockpit firewall, TR Enterprises/Revingtons/Racetorations and many others. Last time I saw a price it was £50-60 quidish, should take all of about 1-2 hours when you can get to the area. Fit the firewall with non setting windscreen sealer under it against the framework and rivet the firewall to the frame. You should be able to get the rear fibreboard cockpit board to fit over the alloy panel. Of course if you have a rear roll bar/cage in the cockpit it helps prevent you being crushed when you roll the car swerving to miss a hedgehog, or even better stops the cockpit lozenging out of shape and keeps the white van which is T boning you out of your laps. We forget that these non integral pre crash deformable structures are hopeless at preventing injury to the passengers and we need to give them all the help they can get. Mick Richards Thanks for the info. On the roll over bar, I completely agree - I have a Revington one fitted for just the reasons you give. The fear of being t-boned, and/or flipping over was too great to ignore when the car was being rebuilt, so that was one of the first things to add - especially as I run it with aeroscreens (not that the original windscreen is much protection anyway). Apart from the safety aspect, it has really stiffened the car which is great. Rod Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Hi Andy, if you're looking for an alloy tank, you could do worse than speak to Andy Wiltshire in Axminster. http://www.andywiltshire.com/web%20site%20tank%20page.htm From what I've seen of his fuel tank work, it's as good as it gets. As such, good value in my book, and one aspect of the car which I really wouldn't wish to skimp on. No doubt he could make one to fit the spare wheel well, it wouldn't be difficult to find a local car for him to measure. Usual disclaimers, I simply admire a craftsman's work when I see it. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elclem1 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Hi Alec, Mickey, Yes I have used andy before when he made a tank for my Lotus. Once the tank is fitted could the firewall be moved to cover this negating the need for the firewall in the cockpit or would that still be mandatory? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Hi Andy, I just retread your post where you say that a panel would be fitted over the repositioned fuel tank, if this was sealed as mentioned in my prior post I think that would act as a firewall. It may then not require a rear cockpit firewall, however for competition purposes an official scrutineer would be the final judge. In the UK you could contact a local one via the authorities and ask his opinion, if you are to compete on the continent I should ask the relevant motor sport organisation either to express an opinion or recommend a local scrutineer to review the modification. Better being a little put out to gain prior approval than being rebuffed at a racetrack with all the attendant waste of monies etc. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elclem1 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Hi Mick, yes i agree, i'm a little way off that yet but i have a french pal here who races and he is going to introduce me to some scruntineers here, hopefully to clarify a few other things. Thanks for the help thus far, but standby there will be other daft questions that will arise...... Cheers Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin bryant Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 In my opinion the order is: Safety options first and foremost. Then stuff that makes the car unreliable - electrics. Then stuff that improves the handling - I consider one of my best investments being the rear anti-roll bar on the TR3A Then stuff that makes the car go faster / stop quicker - not got to this stage yet take care Kev Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Hi Kev, Best bang for your buck on the handling on any TR is sorting out the front bump steer, on the 4/5/6 it's easy and costs about a quid. On the sidescreen cars a little more difficult, did you remember to heat treat your track control arm after bending ? Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
graeme Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Hi Kev, Best bang for your buck on the handling on any TR is sorting out the front bump steer, on the 4/5/6 it's easy and costs about a quid. On the sidescreen cars a little more difficult, did you remember to heat treat your track control arm after bending ? Mick Richards Do tell, Mick Cheers Graeme Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Hi Graeme, The steering rack height on the TR4/5/6 dictates the input into the steering which is changed by the geometry on the caster/camber change which alters the input to the track rod ends. ie: the movement of the wheels as they describe their upwards and downwards movements are "corrupted" by the "contaminated" movement of the track rod ends geometric patterns. This is caused by the dynamics caused by the height of the fixed steering rack, no big deal, Triumph didn't do handling, just cheap ! It can easily be adjusted by about a quids worth of steel stock placed under the rack to adjust the height. On race cars the difference it makes is amazing, it allows the isolation of the steering operation from suspension changes which is the secret of progressive handing and being able to change purely one dimension in the handling of the car at a time. The real secret is how much to change it by ! I've changed the geometry on 6 race cars and the amounts required have been different on all, an amalgam of the production variations making a one size fits all fix probably better than nothing, but not as good as measuring your bump steer changes on your own car. If you or any body wants a small article I've written on it PM your e mail address and I'll forward it. Mick Richards Edited January 24, 2014 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elclem1 Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Mick you have PM Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin bryant Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Mick I didn't drive the TR3A much with the original steering but seem to recall it wandered all over the road. Since then the steering has been replaced with a kit from TR Bitz and the old feeble front anti roll bar with a proper one from Revington TR. I can't say I'm aware of any front bump steer, but it could be a case of ignorance is bliss. I'd like a copy of the mod though for the TR6 that Ian is currently rebuilding so I've PM'd as well. take care Kev Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thescrapman Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Hi guys an interesting topic, I have recently decided to put together a car one i bought earlier this year that i can use here in France and maybe the UK on the track (TR6), I note that 'those who know' have stressed the importance of starting on the rear suspension and brakes and a firewall - I am in the process of fitting a roll cage, but notice that the original fuel tank will not fit in the original place as the rear arms of the cage pass through where it would be , I am considering having an ally one made that will fit into the space where the spare wheel normally is. once fitted it would have an ally cover over the void and hence a fire wall in your experience would this work? I hope this question follows the original thread if not sorry ..... Andy Andy An alloy tank in the spare wheel well is what my mate Mike did. Fitting an alloy plate over the top and sealing it will make access to fill the tank very difficult unless the plate is quite high up, then you could have a filler through the back panel. Putting the firewall behind the seats would allow the use of the standard filler apperture (but with a better cap) or the use of a filler on the top of the tank which is what Mike did. He then fitted a frame over the tank to hold the spare wheel. Cheers Colin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
flatlandsman Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Listen to Uncle Mick, he actually DOES know what he's talking about!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Not to steal Mickey's thunder, but the essence is in this diagram. AB is the upright C & D are the chassis mounts for the wishbones. XY is the track rod on the end of the steering rack, with X the trackrod end, and Y the knuckle on the end of the rack. For minimal bumpsteer, the height of the rack should ensure that the ratio AX/BX is the same as CY/DY. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Hi John, I quite agree, however as I point out in my Bump Steer article (free to all who send me their e mail address by Pm),I'd read this information quite a few times before in different publications (after all it is basic geometry)and was too thick to think it out properly and then apply it ! That's why a simple way of measuring what the Bump Steer is on your car, (I've set up 6 Race Trs and all have been different)is better than the formulae which too many drivers/mechanics shun away from. Rather than rely upon what a formulae says it should be, a practical method easily carried out of actually measuring and plotting your TRs front suspension "corruption" of your steering application and then a cost effective method of changing it (about a quid ! how reasonable can you get ?) was attractive to me, and judging by the enthusiastic response from other Forum readers them also. Even on a road car the satisfaction of minimising your Bump Steer can be found by setting the car into a high speed constant radius curve and tracking through without having to saw at the steering wheel, (subject to your suspension being set correctly), the sport of Kings ! PS the reduction in Bump Steer method outlined in my article works equally as well on Mcpherson strut cars and is easily carried out, I did it on my 3 X TR Register Race Championship winning TR7 V8. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Badfrog Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 Spend £50 quidish and fit a rear cockpit alloy firewall, will help prevent 10 gallons of flaming petrol surging into the passenger compartment and killing yourself and passenger hung upside down from safety belted seats. Nobody can see it when fitted and is the least you can do to remain safe. Mick Richards Mick, Do you make it from alloy or is there a supplier? I'm interested. Badfrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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