Norfolkjohn Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Apologies if I get some of the terminology wrong here but I have a problem with the driver’s door locking itself on my TR4A. The problem started some weeks ago and initially I though the door had jammed. It was impossible to open the door by pressing the button in the external handle but it would open fine using the internal handle. As soon as the door was closed again it was impossible to get it to open using the external handle. I then decided to try unlocking the door (which I hadn’t locked ) using the key and it then opened fine but locked again as soon as it was shut. It seems to lock every time the door is closed but can be opened from the outside by first unlocking with the key and can always be opened using the interior handle. Removing the door card has not revealed anything obviously broken or loose and there is no excess oil / grease / crud on anything. The door handle has been taken off and the lock cleaned out with solvent and then dried and refitted (done by a local garage). That seemed to get things working normally for a few days but I’m now back to square one. The only other thing I’ve found is that with the door closed and locked (by itself) if I tap the top of the button in the external handle the door can usually then me opened when the button is pressed in. I’m fearing that the problem is just that the lock / push button in the external handle is worn and needs to be replaced but does anyone have any other ideas ? Assuming the lock / push button is knackered where might I find a replacement. It seems that you can only buy complete door handles with the lock / push button but these are not the same as the original ones and a modification to the door is necessary which I’m not keen on. Are there any other options ? Any possible sources of second hand locks / complete handle assemblies ? Comments / advice / suggestions welcome. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hi John, today I rebuilt my door handles so I am something of an expert beware!! The item you push in (the plunger) contains the lock barrel (the lock barrel) inside this is a thin tubular thingy with two sticky out bits. It sounds like the sticky out bits are worn. They should have squared off ends. I think you will find yours are rounded. The only awkward thing in disassembling the lick is the pin that retains the lock barrel. A thin pin punch will sort that - either direction . The thin tubular thing would not be too easy to make (originally a casting) A new or secondhand handle may give you the bit you need. The handles (internal gubbins) are handed but not the thin tubular thing. It may be possible to file a new square end on the thin tubular thing. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bob-menhennett Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 John Did the garage check the "clearance" ( Haynes manual Chapter 12,section 30.9 ) it should be 0.0625 inch ( Fig 12.15 ) on the plunger/ push button It contacts the lock contactor. I'd try that first, it well maybe worn parts... that need replacement but... if only to eliminate it. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Smokey Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hi John, I took my door handles apart to rekey them and rechrome them, and one article was particularly helpful. It's too big to upload here, but if you PM me, I can email it to you. You'll have to figure out how the various pieces interact, and the Workshop Manual will help as well. I took a while, but my locks now look and operate as new. Given that your handle was working previously, the locknut on the plunger may have worked loose, and may now be out of adjustment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mark (tenpin) Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Hi John, I took my door handles apart to rekey them and rechrome them, and one article was particularly helpful. It's too big to upload here, but if you PM me, I can email it to you. You'll have to figure out how the various pieces interact, and the Workshop Manual will help as well. I took a while, but my locks now look and operate as new. Given that your handle was working previously, the locknut on the plunger may have worked loose, and may now be out of adjustment. Hi John just had the same problem with the first door handle fitted definately mechanism vibrating down when the door is closing have some door handles to compare if you want a look pop round Mark Ps Just took the Tr for a run out although not finished, on the road Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Norfolkjohn Posted July 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Many thanks for all the info and suggestions - a few things I need to look at and try to understand further. Smokey & Mark have sent you both messages and would like to take you up on your respective offers. Thanks again John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tonycharente Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hi John, I took my door handles apart to rekey them and rechrome them, and one article was particularly helpful. It's too big to upload here, but if you PM me, I can email it to you. You'll have to figure out how the various pieces interact, and the Workshop Manual will help as well. I took a while, but my locks now look and operate as new. Given that your handle was working previously, the locknut on the plunger may have worked loose, and may now be out of adjustment. Hello Smokey, Please may I bother you to PM me the article you mention - I am having similar problems to those raised here. Many thanks, Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tonycharente Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 The handles (internal gubbins) are handed but not the thin tubular thing. Roger Hello Roger, Which bits are handed, please, and which side is which? (I can't see ANY differences between my two locks, and so I'm wondering whether I haven't got two locks of the same side (two RH or two LH). How can I tell? Many thanks Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hi Tony, if you look at the die cast backing (where the lever sticks out) there will be a LH & RH depending on the hand. Some of the repro's do not have a facility for the lever to stick out - these are no good. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tonycharente Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Hello Roger, Thank you for your quick reply! I can't look at the back of the handles right away, as I've put them back on the car, but when I did look at them I didn't spot any LH or RH lettering. By "the lever" do you mean the bit that is operated by the link down to the internal locking mechanism? The reason I put the handles back on was that I have a hunch that my car has two RH external handle assemblies. I therefore tried the LH handle (which was the one causing me anguish) on the RH door, and it works perfectly, whilst the RH handle on the LH door has the same problems as before, all of which I think confirms my hunch. So then my question becomes which actual bit(s) of the mechanism is/are handed? I gather that buying a new LH external handle assembly won't remove my problem ('cos it won't connect to link down to the internal locking mechanism if I understand things correctly) so I need to find a tatty but working LH external handle assembly and use its parts I think. Does that sound right? Many thanks again, Tony Edited July 17, 2012 by tonycharente Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hi Tony, I think you only need the die cast backing - this is the bit that is handed. I believe all the bits inside can be used either side. These bits are not available new any more but there should be plenty secondhand ones around. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 All, I think the lock barrels themselves are also handed.... but the handedosity shouldn't be the issue here as i understood this lock previously worked & is now on strike.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Hi Dave, the barrels are the same - if you buy a kit you get an ignition, boot, glove box (all different) and two for the doors (the same) Tony's handles both fit on the RH side and both do not fit on the LH side. I'm sure the only difference is the die cast backing. There is a die cast plunger inside that inhibits the door lock but I'm sure this is also not handed. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tthomson Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 You might also note that some handles that look like TR4A handles and locks are NOT TR4A handles and locks. The position of fixing screws are different. I haven't figured out whether these are TR4 handles or some other version, but very frustrating when you find they don't fit. TT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Hi TT, the 4 & 4A handles are the same, the odd ones may be from a Bedford truck. Some other cars used a similar handle. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Hi Roger, I just fitted such a kit to my car & found that I fitted the wrong barrels to each door, they look the same but the have a cutout that is specific for the left or right side. When the wrong barrel is fitted the key won't unlock the door (i think) but it will lock it.... Maybe all kits not same?? dave Hi Dave, the barrels are the same - if you buy a kit you get an ignition, boot, glove box (all different) and two for the doors (the same) Tony's handles both fit on the RH side and both do not fit on the LH side. I'm sure the only difference is the die cast backing. There is a die cast plunger inside that inhibits the door lock but I'm sure this is also not handed. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 umm, I shall have to look at my old bits tomorrow - It's a new one on me though. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 The n/s and o/s handles are identical except for two parts: the lock barrels Different because to lock you always need to lift the lever of the actual thing that does the locking. This is so on both sides. So on one side you rotate the key clockwise and on the other anti-clockwise. The handles are marked on the barrels with and arrow to say this. Now the plunger that pushes the lever not handed, that is the same on both sides. This plunger drops back into the button if you are locked. So the barrel has a notch to get this to occur. But you turn the key either clock or anti-clock so the notch in the barrel is handed to suit. the outside diecast cover This is the bit you see at the back of the handle that goes through the big hole in the door skin. Remember the stuff above about the lever always being lifted to lock. The cover has oblong slot to let the plunger come out. The plunger isnt round. If this part was not handed you would need to turn the key in the same direction on both sides but this wont lift the lever as required. Now these handle wear out easily because the metal is all soft die-cast stuff. So lots of handles will have been relaced or had parts swapped about. People dont realise about the handed bits and stuff gets mixed up. It is just possible to get a n/s handle to work on the o/s and vice versa. This is because there are two parts to the locking action. the plunger - drops back into the button if you are locked also a cam in the bit that really does the locking stops the toothed wheel rotating Either of these will stop entry, kind of. They are linked together by a link with two parts biassed by a spring. If this is left disconnected the key will disable the plunger. So you will lock. But you can now turn the key whichever way is required to suit the barrel. The cam will still do something but only if you use the internal handle to move it. Hope you can follow all this. Its hard to describe without banging on even more. al. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Hi Dave/Al, well, you live and learn. I've had a look at my odds&ends and I have to agree with you that the barrel is also handed (thank you for pointing this out). Not sure how I've got away without knowing this as I've rebuilt a number of handles that worked OK afterwards. But clearly the barrel casting is for a sedperate near side and off side. So - there are two handed items within each handle assy - the backplate and the barrel. Tony, on the backplate they are identified as NS and OS (not LH & RH as I previously stated). The barrels appear to have no markings. I don't know if it is universal but on my original barrels there is stamped the key number. This is not on the repro items. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) I've just been through the pain of reassembling my door locks. One awkward bit not mentioned here is the spring which biases the key to the neutral position. If the hooked ends of this spring have straightened they won't engage with the hole on the lock barrel. They can be carefully teased into shape with snipe nosed pliers. My handles are not in the best of condition but the topsides were worse than the bottoms. I swapped the left and right handle bodies over so the nice side will be visible when installed. Incidentally I think the repro handles are from a Bedford CF. They are much simpler than the originals and will not operate the rotary lock. All the key does is to inhibit the operating plunger. Also, as pointed out above the rear fixing hole is in a different position necessitating drilling the door and making the original fixing hole redundant. Edited July 19, 2012 by peejay4A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
North London Mike Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Glad you guys have tackled this, I got a far as a liberal dose of WD40 (passenger door) which held it for a few weeks and then it was U/S, although as with John's, it will open with the key or you can just lean in and grab the internal So, not too much of a problem really and one that can wait until after the IWE !! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 My worry is that when I get the Surrey on, windows up and both doors locked the bl@@dy thing refuses to open from the outside in spite of my efforts in getting the locks working. The whole locking arrangement seems to be flakey and over complex. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 Hi Pete, I think the only thing flakey about the lock is the material it is made from. The mazak wears and things start to go wrong. But on the other hand they have been around for a long time. The system itself is quite functional. My locks have been in use for 14 years since the rebuild and have not faltered. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'll reserve judgement Quote Link to post Share on other sites
North London Mike Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'll reserve judgement I decided to leave mine well alone while it still has some functionality, pending a strip down over the winter. Then, when its properley broken, I'll hand it all over in a carrier bag to somebody who knows better ...........locks are overated anyway Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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