Inlet Manifolds -

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Guys,

 

rooting through Alannids Cave, a bit of an anorak issue . . . between us, Alan and I have just about a full set of production inlet manifolds, right through the wet-liner 4-pot TR range, and a few more oddballs beside. But there's always something new to learn in the TR world.

 

So does anyone know anything significant about 302118, fitted from engines 8997E to 9350E ?

 

I've come across a few comments, but it's a very short run for a production casting.

 

Even more unusual, I think, is IT3 - and it may perhaps have originated in California, or at least West Coast. It's a complete new one on me, but it's for real, I've got one in my grubby paw.

 

Pictures later, first see if anyone has any clues . . . .

 

And no, these aren't rhetorical questions, I don't know - so I'm asking.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[stuart]

As far as I can tell thats an interim one nearly at the end of the low port head production and the only difference is the studs for the carbs and inlet to exhaust manifold studs which changed at that point. Possibly to improve clamping between the two, and also the gasket was changed slightly as well.Obviously didnt work that well hence the change to 302006 and on to the end of low port production.

Stuart.

Edited November 26, 2009 by stuart

[mike ellis]

Hi Alec,

 

Can you check whether the port diameter is 35.5mm or 38mm

 

Mike

[TR 2100]

As far as I can tell thats an interim one nearly at the end of the low port head production

and the only difference is the studs for the carbs and inlet to exhaust manifold studs which

changed at that point. Possibly to improve clamping between the two, and also the gasket was

changed slightly as well.Obviously didnt work that well hence the change to 302006 and on to

the end of low port production.

Stuart.

 

 

Hi Stuart,

 

Does that mean the manifold is for a low port head but to take the larger H6

carbs? Should be possible to tell if it is for a high port or low port head.

 

I'm wondering if the slight curve would change the angle of the carbs.

 

AlanR

[vivdownunder]

Hi Alec,

 

Your TR3 manifold 302118 is a pretty rare item having only been used on 353 engines.

 

TS8997E was the first TR3 engine (not commission number) so I think it was fitted to the carryover low port head from the TR2 that was superseded at engine TS 9350E by the improved "Le Mans" low port head. At that point they introduced inlet manifold 302119 with 38mm ports, and swapped to TE needles for the SU's.

 

When the 1.75" SU's were fitted to the low port head at the start of TR3 production, it was a bit of a rushed job, and there were quite a few problems, culminating of course in the introduction of the high port head at engine TS12606E.

 

Alan will now use underhand tactics and swap to another thread to respond

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

Edited November 26, 2009 by vivdownunder

[stuart]

Hi Stuart,

 

Does that mean the manifold is for a low port head but to take the larger H6

carbs? Should be possible to tell if it is for a high port or low port head.

 

I'm wondering if the slight curve would change the angle of the carbs.

 

AlanR

 

As Viv has said there were minor changes to the carbs , they also changed the vacuum pipe for the advance retard as well.But its still a low port manifold.

Stuart.

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Mike,

 

yes 302118 is a low port fitment, for 4-stud 1.75" carbs and with 38mm ports.

 

If I had to make an educated guess, I'd rate it as the better of the low port manifolds by some margin, and probably rather better than 302119 high port manifold too. It looks to me as if the carbs will sit a little lower, and might well have benefited from a heat shield. I'd also guess that the straight inlet tract 302119 design possibly came in as a slightly more economical casting, cost wise, than the curved tract 302118.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[mike ellis]

Alec,

 

What you have is the manifold for the Le Mans head, there is an error in the parts book! The part numbers for the early 4 point manifold and the Le Mans one have somehow been swapped i.e correct numbers are 302006 for the early one and 302118 for the Le Mans version.

 

Still rare but not as rare as the earlier one which would have had 35.5mm port size and therefore used the same gasket (106937) as the TR2 manifold. This earlier version was fitted from TS8997E to TS9349E and the Le Mans version from TS9350E to TS13052E when the high port head came in.

 

Strangely the workshop manual describes heads fitted from TS9350E as 'High Port'.

 

Mike

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Mike,

 

Curiouser and curiouser - especially if the number transposition as you suggest has lasted this long without widespread acknowledgement or correction. Worthy of Haynes !!!

 

Hardly surprising then that the 302118 gave the impression of being a litle more efficient than the 'low port' manifolds ?

 

If you compare the 'low port' with the 'Le Mans' head, I think you'll find that the ports on the latter are indeed slightly higher - but not as high as those of the 'high port' head proper. So the reference to the 'Le Mans' as high port is reasonable in comparison with the preceding TR2 cylinder head. Often enough I've seen the 'Le Mans' head referred to as 'intermediate port' . . . .

 

Meanwhile, no clues as to the origins of the IT3 inlet manifold ? Andrew Smith was perusing it this evening - I think we agree it's chalk and cheese compared to the production items. I'll try and organise some pictures.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[BrianC]

Even more unusual, I think, is IT3 - and it may perhaps have originated in California, or at least West Coast. It's a complete new one on me, but it's for real, I've got one in my grubby paw.

 

OK, I give up Alec - where does the 'IT3' come into this? Is it stamped into the casting?

Have you got any photos of it next to the more common manifolds?

It's just possible I may also have one as I remember having trouble identifying one of my spares which I thought may have been modified as the number didn't seem to match the physical item. Will see if I can find it on Monday.

[mike ellis]

Alec,

 

The number transposition has been known for some time, it is certainly in one of Bill's 'Originality' books. I will reiterate it in a future TRaction.

 

Do you also have the 302006 manifold as it would be good to arrange photographs of each type for future reference.

 

Mike

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Mike,

 

I really must get round to reading one or two more of Bill's books . . . . after the first 'Originality', flicking through they all seemed a bit too much like reworks with modest extension. And I haven't seen any cheap enough to attract me ! I do have the Wedge book, but that's now long overdue for updating and correction, given all the additional information that has come to light since Bill wrote it. Mind you, there will be so few 7s and 8s left before long, it may not be a cost-effective project . . . . .

 

I ought to have a 302006 somewhere in my own stuff - I had couple years ago, gave one away for sure, but I think the other is still lurking. I'll have a hunt in due course.

 

Brian, IT3 is stamped in, and it's nothing remotely like a standard manifold, although it is a work of art. I'll try and grapple with posting a picture later, first time for everything !

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[mike ellis]

Alec,

 

They have all been updated and incorporated into one volume, £25 from the Register but probably available at a cheaper price on ebay or Amazon. Apparently this was the only way Bill could get them reprinted. I don't know who advised on the TR7 part, I have to admit I haven't looked at that section yet.

 

Mike

[BrianC]

I dug out my spare inlet manifolds and, unsurprisingly, neither are IT3s.

 

They are both 302119 high-port manifolds, for 4-stud 1.75" carbs and 38mm ports.

The only difference is that they have DD1 and DD2 casting marks respectively (presumably mould numbers?) and the DD1 version has no ears, like the low-port manifolds.

 

It's difficult to tell whether or not the manifold was cast like this but I would imagine the ears were probably ground or filed off by one of the car's many previous owners to fit it to the low-port head which was on my first TR3A when I bought it.

[ianc]

Didn't Vic Derrington produce an inlet manifold back in the dark ages? if so, this IT3 might be one of his? Vic did come and talk to us in the early 1970s at Tetsworth (I think it was there rather than Eathorpe Park).

I don't believe Sid Hurrell (SAH) produced a manifold of his own - certainly not one listed in my 1965 SAH catalogue. But, you could BUY one of his 135 BHP engines with Lucas Sports Coil, oil cooler kit and 4-branch extractor manifold, " complete ready for fitting and running" for a princely £170!

Ian Cornish

[mike ellis]

JJC has a Derrington inlet manifold on his ex- Derrington car. If you are reading this John does it have IT3 on it anywhere?

[TR 2100]

JJC has a Derrington inlet manifold on his ex- Derrington car. If you are reading this John does it have IT3 on it anywhere?

 

I managed to acquire some Derrington inlet manifolds a little while ago,

now fitted although I haven't seen them yet.

BUT - these are for Webers - the IT3 manifold is for SUs and very different

in design.

 

Did Derrington ever make an inlet manifold for SUs?

 

The "IT3" stamped manifold is fabricated from steel - it's not an

alloy casting. Well made, but it does leave the door open to it

being a special.

 

AlanR

[Alec Pringle]

Photographs of the unusual IT3 inlet manifold . . .

 

 

 

 

Usual 1.75" diameter at the carb end . . . the head end is another matter, 42.5mm apiece.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

Edited December 13, 2009 by Alec Pringle

[Alec Pringle]

I've had a suggestion by email that this IT3 manifold might possibly relate to "Indiana Triumphs", as apparently there was a small tuning outfit in Indianapolis which specialised in TRs and latterly Spitfires in the early and mid 1960s . . . .

 

Does this ring any bells with USA contributors ? The only "Indiana Triumphs" I'm aware of is the VTR chapter.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[TR3BGeorge]

Alec,

 

What you have is the manifold for the Le Mans head, there is an error in the parts book! The part numbers for the early 4 point manifold and the Le Mans one have somehow been swapped i.e correct numbers are 302006 for the early one and 302118 for the Le Mans version.

 

Still rare but not as rare as the earlier one which would have had 35.5mm port size and therefore used the same gasket (106937) as the TR2 manifold. This earlier version was fitted from TS8997E to TS9349E and the Le Mans version from TS9350E to TS13052E when the high port head came in.

 

Strangely the workshop manual describes heads fitted from TS9350E as 'High Port'.

 

Mike

 

 

Mike, thanks for the poop. I made the change in my parts catalog. While we are on that same page, let me ask you about the item right above the intake manifold: the EXHAUST MANIFOLD. The catalog shows the original 301144 being changed to 304164, but it does not give an engine number at where the change was made. I had added a notation "No Change, per Moss." Do you know anything about 304164?

 

I have tried to keep my catalog "accurate," and more helpful, by making notations where I have picked up information from the various historians. For example, "button nose" and "longer" and "shorter" on the starter motors, etc, etc. Of course, it all becomes a moot point when the suppliers stock ONE REPLACEMENT for ALL of the various models.

 

Thanks again. Keep up the good work. We anal-retentives (you Europeans prefer "anoraks") love this kind of stuff. I would like to sit down with a bunch of you guys, and go over every line item on every page of the catalog. As you know, there are many errors and missprints.

 

Enjoy your holidays!

[TR3BGeorge]

 

Meanwhile, no clues as to the origins of the IT3 inlet manifold ? Andrew Smith was perusing it this evening - I think we agree it's chalk and cheese compared to the production items. I'll try and organise some pictures.

 

Alec

 

 

Hey Alec! CHALK and CHEESE ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[BrianC]

Hey Alec! CHALK and CHEESE ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

 

See http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/chalk-and-cheese.html

 

And in a similar vein, if you really want to fry your brain, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges

[mike ellis]

George,

 

304164 is the exhaust manifold for the high port head (from TS13053E), the reason there is no change point in the parts book is because it can be used as a straight swap on the low port head. 301144 is the low port exhaust manifold which is not a direct fit on the high port head.

 

Mike

[Don Elliott]

In my copy of "Master Parts Price List" for "Triumph Models - USA" dated July 1958, Pt. No. 301144 is listed as an Exhaust Manifold for Model TR2-3 (Code at a price of US $16.25.

 

Pt. No. 304164 is not listed.

 

302118 is an Inlet Manifold for Code B (TR2-3) for $20.00

 

302119 is also listed as an Inlet Manifold for Code B (TR2-3) for $14.50.

 

Items in this Parts Catalogue use Code B for items for the TR2-3 and Code A is the designation for items used on the TR3-A. This is a Standard -Triumph Catalogue and already - in July 1958, they are differentiating this new TR model as the "TR3A".

[Harry nut and bolt]

Hi Alec

The inlet manifold that you have in the photo I fitted one exactly the same two years ago. It came in a box of bits with a TR3a I bought for spares, Ten years ago when I bought my current car TR3a 1960 it had Webbers on it but it was using too much petrol so I converted back to SUs. Talking to someone at the International one year it was suggested that HS6 carburettors were more fuel efficient, so I got a pair of reconditioned ones and fitted them to the spare manifold. It needed a bit of work but it works well even though it has possibly the wrong needles (a future project) you should fit it if you haven’t got a better set up. I will try and up load some photos of it but as yet the photos are too big to go on

Harry