123Ignition Distributor

[bennem]

I've recently bought one of these to replace a knackered standard distributor. The standard distributor had huge amounts of slop on the drive but the car still ran but was getting rougher at higher revs. But the real reason for the change was the alarming noises it was making so it was putting me off driving the car. I know the 123ignition it won't improve performance but I am hoping for a generally maintenance free ignition and was hoping for a quick swap.

 

Three days later fiddling about for a few hours here and there and I still haven't gotten the b*****d in. Now I am pretty confident that I have been finding TDC, peering in No 1 with a torch to see where the piston is and looking at the timing marks. Where I am not so confident is the actual drive from the engine which may not be correct and has been part of my problem.

 

I followed the instructions as provided with the 123 distributor and removed the old one with it pointing to No1 and the timing marks at TDC but in my youthful exuberance to get the job done I think I peered at the distributor drive and saw that the notch was pointing to the right not the left and the 123distributor was not slipping into place properly. The drive on the bottom of the distributor was not fitting into the engine drive cleanly so the body of the distributor was not allowing the clamp to tighten up properly on the distributor body stopping it rotating. So I rotated the engine so the notch on the engine drive was where the manual said it was supposed to be which allowed the distributor to fit and clamp up but wouldn't let the car start and I had a succession of noisy hours with the car spitting through the carbs and backfiring while I fiddled about with HT leads and settings. I did get it to run but very very roughly.

 

Now where I am getting to with this long winded story is that I now suspect that the engine drive is set wrongly. The notch mark on the engine distributor drive is facing the wrong way. Facing the right rather than the left.

 

Now here is the real question. Are the drive slots on the engine distributor drive different sizes so that the distributor itself only slots in easily in one direction making it easy to clamp down? If this is the case can you "adjust" the slots on the engine drive to enable the distributor to fit without damaging the engine drive itself? A screwdriver and a bit of pushing should adjust the slot or does the engine drive itself have to come out or should I attempt to swap the drive on the distributor around the other way?

[TR4AIRS]

I believe it's possible to rotate the drive at the bottom of the distributor 180°.

 

You could also lead the number one ignition wire to the point of the cap where the rotor is at TDC. Damn, this sounded alot better in Dutch

 

Btw, the drive is eccentric, just like the original one.

[Smokey]

I went through this whole sequence with the original distributor on my car, including the spitting and backfiring. The distributor/oil pump drive shaft needs to be set up as shown in the shop manual, with the slot in the distributor drive pointing at the No. 1 cylinder when the No.1 piston is at TDC on the COMPRESSION STROKE. You can check that it's at TDC visually through the spark plug hole, but you also need to confirm that it's on the compression stroke by using a compression gauge or blocking the hole to confirm that the cylinder is building up pressure (battery disconnected, of course). The distributor driveshaft will rotate slightly as its hypoid drive gear engages the camshaft drive gear, so you need to rotate the oil pump drive to the correct initial position by using a long screwdriver. Then it's a question of getting the correct tooth on the drive gear to mesh so that you get the driveshaft orientation shown in the shop manual. You also have to make ABSOLUTELY SURE that the drive slot on the shaft is engaged to the oil pump drive, or you won't have any oil pressure on start up. My drive gear was off by one tooth (previous owner), and I could not get the distributor timing correct. The distributor drive dog is eccentric, and will fit the driveshaft in only one configuration; it cannot be mounted 180 degrees out. You will also have to set the correct clearance on the driveshaft/oil pump drive as shown in the shop manual. Unfortunately, the shims provided by Moss are too thick for the job, and you will have to talk to other suppliers to find the .005 shims that are required. Overall, it's a simple job, but time consuming. I have a rebuilt Lucas distributor, but I think the drive principals above are all the same. When I received my rebuilt distributor, the drive dog was installed 180 degrees out, but that's another story.

[i8pig]

Now here is the real question. Are the drive slots on the engine distributor drive different sizes so that the distributor itself only slots in easily in one direction making it easy to clamp down? If this is the case can you "adjust" the slots on the engine drive to enable the distributor to fit without damaging the engine drive itself? A screwdriver and a bit of pushing should adjust the slot or does the engine drive itself have to come out or should I attempt to swap the drive on the distributor around the other way?

Hi,

I fitted one of these excellent distributors a couple of years ago and you can turn the drive gear round 180degrees. Drive the pin out with a suitable punch, turn the drive round and put the pin back in. I assume you are going by the instructions and rotating the distributor until the light comes on then checking that you are 4 degrees from TDC on No 1? (I actually found 10 degrees static advance better). And you have set the programme on the wheel beneath the distributor body, the consensus is that 7 is the best setting.

Old cars eh?

Steve

[bennem]

Hi,

I fitted one of these excellent distributors a couple of years ago and you can turn the drive gear round 180degrees. Drive the pin out with a suitable punch, turn the drive round and put the pin back in. I assume you are going by the instructions and rotating the distributor until the light comes on then checking that you are 4 degrees from TDC on No 1? (I actually found 10 degrees static advance better). And you have set the programme on the wheel beneath the distributor body, the consensus is that 7 is the best setting.

Old cars eh?

Steve

 

Hello Steve,

 

I am going by the instructions and assumed it would be a quick job. Unfortunately it is not turning out that way and that is no fault of the distributor itself more to do with the 46 year old car having had many a hand fiddling with this and that through out its lifetime.

 

On these forums there has been a number of recommendations for the best setting. Some say 2, some 4, others 6 and others 7. I have started at 6.

 

Back to first principles tonight I think. I'll be looking at the rockers. If they are correct with TDC then I will be turning the distributor drive round as recommended by Steve.

[Smokey]

I had to do exactly as Steve describes with my rebuilt distributor : drive out the pin, rotate the drive dog 180 degrees, and then reinstall the pin. Be sure to support the drive dog when driving out the pin so as to avoid putting stress on the distributor bushing.

[bennem]

I had to do exactly as Steve describes with my rebuilt distributor : drive out the pin, rotate the drive dog 180 degrees, and then reinstall the pin. Be sure to support the drive dog when driving out the pin so as to avoid putting stress on the distributor bushing.

 

 

OK there is no accounting for stupidity (mine that is). I was convinced I had TDC right but I was obviously 180 out. By taking the rocker cover off and checking what was going on I discovered my mistake.

 

Now my problem is that while I am getting the car to start it needs choke and some accelerator to keep it going. I am finding this even when I now put the old distributor back in. As I obviously took the old one out incorrectly I cannot just put the old one in and it be pretty much in tune which is a pain.

 

When a TR4 is badly out of tune does it tend to sound as though it is running on 3 cylinders? I am wondering if one of the plugs has stopped working.

 

Any suggestions as to what I should check next?

[Smokey]

Check the timing with a timing light to see if it's roughly in the right place, i.e. a little bit of advance - 10 degrees or so at idle. Then check that when you set the points gap, that you're setting it on the correct face of the distributor cam. The rotation is counterclockwise, and you set the opening of the points on the face before the high point of the cam. I've set the timing on the wrong side of the cam when I've been in too much of a hurry, and the car will hardly run. In fact, the timing will be so advanced, you can do a lot of damage. I found this by just checking with a timing light to see if the advance was in the right neighbourhood, and I could see right away what the problem was. It's possible that in your experiments, you've fouled the plugs, so check those as well. I always take them out to find TDC anyway.

[i8pig]

When a TR4 is badly out of tune does it tend to sound as though it is running on 3 cylinders? I am wondering if one of the plugs has stopped working.

The straight answer is "yes" a badly tuned TR sounds like a bag of nails.

When you get the car to fire and run are you rotating the distributor to see if you can get it to run better? You don't need to be much out for it to run roughly. Static advance (at tick over) can be anywhere between 4 and 10 degrees but I think the consensus is that 10 is best. I think it is unlikely that a plug has stopped working but you can get a set of transparent plug caps from Halfords (lazer brand) that will show if you are getting a spark at the plug but it won't tell you if it's at the wrong time.

I tried settings from 5 to 8 and found 7 best for me, there seems to be a consensus that favours that setting too. This won't do much for the low speed running though, its effect is higher up the rev range.

Finally, don't consider yourself stupid. We've all done similar things (usually more than once), it's what they call experience. The major reason we are able to pass on advice is that we all made the same mistakes as you but when we stumbled across the correct way we are so happy that we want to share our experience.

At least you seem to be persistent, a major quality in old car ownership.

Keep on having fun

Steve

[jobster]

I just installed a 123-ignition. Traded in the old one for the build-in version. Not for being an all original freak but mainly to keep the rev-counter mechanical. Any way, have used setting 6 so far and took the car for a good test drive. What a difference! Smooth in all.

I noticed some oil leaking though, somewhere around the distributor "shaft" where the clamp is. Although pushed in very well, I ownder whether there shouldn't be any sort of o-ring between the distributor and the engine. Reviewed Bentley and Haynes but can't figure it out. Otherwise, any other clues?

 

Oops, just noted this is TR4, and mine is a TR6. Will post it in the right section.

Edited August 4, 2009 by jobster

[bennem]

Just thought I would update you on my current woes with my car. I never did get the distributor working. No.3 big end bearing decided to 'spin' in the connecting rod and ruined the corresponding crankshaft journal. B*****D!

 

Engine is now being rebuilt.

[TR4AIRS]

We also ripped the crankshaft apart and then rebuilt the entire engine.

 

I believe the 123 ignition is a really useful upgrade!

[PaulAnderson]

I just installed a 123-ignition. Traded in the old one for the build-in version. Not for being an all original freak but mainly to keep the rev-counter mechanical. .........

Oops, just noted this is TR4, and mine is a TR6. Will post it in the right section.

 

What do you mean? I looked on their web site, page http://www.123ignition.nl/brand/Triumph.html where they state 'Triumph-owners should check if they need a connection for a mechanical rev.counter, as a 123\GB does not offer this'

 

Paul

[TR4AIRS]

I hope I can use the word, but the 123-Ignition folks really offer a crappy service. When I buy parts, I want to be able to contact the manufacturer personally. However, a retailer of theirs who really knows his stuff (he rebuilds Weber carbs, mainly builds aircooled engines and has an engine dynamometer), recommended this upgrade for my TR4A saying that I would never regret the purchase: It looks almost original, it's more reliable, advance can be dialled in accurately AND on my car the rev counter cable is located below the distributor, hence no need to change anything to the rev counter. I will try and take pictures as soon as possible.

 

Kind regards,

Kristof.

Edited September 15, 2009 by TR4AIRS

[EdwinTiben]

I'm quite pleased with the support from http://www.123ignition-conversions.com/

 

These guys have converted the original distributors of my GT6 mk1 and TR2 to 123 ignition.

 

Now,it still looks original and the mechanical rev is still operational !

 

Besides the technical bits, they seem to know the product and are willing to assist through mail or phone

Edited September 17, 2009 by EdwinTiben

[jobster]

I'm quite pleased with the support from http://www.123ignition-conversions.com/

 

These guys have converted the original distributors of my GT6 mk1 and TR2 to 123 ignition.

 

Now,it still looks original and the mechanical rev is still operational !

 

Besides the technical bits, they seem to know the product and are willing to assist through mail or phone

Same here. Bought the 123-ignition from the folks here in the Netherlands. If you want to have to ignition in the original housing, it can be done and is on an exchange basis. Slightly more expensive but than again, there is no need for hassle with the rev counter as it uses the same as in the old one. INstallation is a piece of cake and a 15 min job. Fine tuning the static curve is what is left.

[bennem]

Same here. Bought the 123-ignition from the folks here in the Netherlands. If you want to have to ignition in the original housing, it can be done and is on an exchange basis. Slightly more expensive but than again, there is no need for hassle with the rev counter as it uses the same as in the old one. INstallation is a piece of cake and a 15 min job. Fine tuning the static curve is what is left.

 

Anyone want to buy my 123distributor at a knock down price? After having my engine built I now have a 45D and pertronix. In the fullness of time I will have the original one reconditioned and the pertronix swapped over.

[PaulAnderson]

I wonder if someone can give a clear an unequivical answer to my query on the fitting of a 123 distributor to a 4A in respect of the rev counter take off and whether the mechanical system would still work - I don't want to go electrical like I know TR6's have to.

I've had a pm indicating 'As far as I am aware the 4 and the 4a distributor is identical with the mechanical drive being separate to the distributor. The issue comes with the TR6 which incorporates the drive into the distributor so you have to convert the rev counter to be electric if you change to a 123 distributor'. This seems to tell me what I need to know before buying one but I want to be absolutely sure before parting with my cash.

 

The drive for the rev counter seems to come via the distributor pedestal but I'm not sure if its driven from the distributor shaft or from something within the engine. I rang Southern Carburettors, the UK distributor today and they could not answer so crappy service all round.

 

Thanks,

Paul

[stuart]

I wonder if someone can give a clear an unequivical answer to my query on the fitting of a 123 distributor to a 4A in respect of the rev counter take off and whether the mechanical system would still work - I don't want to go electrical like I know TR6's have to.

I've had a pm indicating 'As far as I am aware the 4 and the 4a distributor is identical with the mechanical drive being separate to the distributor. The issue comes with the TR6 which incorporates the drive into the distributor so you have to convert the rev counter to be electric if you change to a 123 distributor'. This seems to tell me what I need to know before buying one but I want to be absolutely sure before parting with my cash.

 

The drive for the rev counter seems to come via the distributor pedestal but I'm not sure if its driven from the distributor shaft or from something within the engine. I rang Southern Carburettors, the UK distributor today and they could not answer so crappy service all round.

 

Thanks,

Paul

 

It does work on the 4/4a ok as the drive is below the dizzy and totally separate.Or you could have your original distributor rebuilt by Distributor Doctor Martin Jay for half the price.

Stuart.

Edited March 18, 2010 by stuart